Giving the F-16 another chance...

I eagerly pre-purchased the F-16 and flew it on day one of release, only to be extremely dissapointed by the low quality, number of bugs, and lack of basic features.

Two months in and I would like to give it another chance...

After flying around some today, I unfortunately have to say that there still seems to be very little that is working, not bugged, or just completely missing. It is a very frustrating aircraft to fly and operate in it's current state and I cannot really learn anything yet since just about everything is still incomplete.

Maybe I am just being unrealistic and my expectation are too high in regards to development...

What are everyone's thoughts on the current state of the F-16?

I think its awesome.

Data link is real nice.

Air to air it is good to go.

Air to ground guided and unguided weapons.

Nice and fast.

I fly the F16 most of the time now.

I eagerly pre-purchased the F-16 and flew it on day one of release, only to be extremely dissapointed by the low quality, number of bugs, and lack of basic features.

 

Two months in and I would like to give it another chance...

 

After flying around some today, I unfortunately have to say that there still seems to be very little that is working, not bugged, or just completely missing. It is a very frustrating aircraft to fly and operate in it's current state and I cannot really learn anything yet since just about everything is still incomplete.

 

Maybe I am just being unrealistic and my expectation are too high in regards to development...

 

What are everyone's thoughts on the current state of the F-16?

It's turn performance leaves much to be desired, the thrust either isn't accurate or the drag modelling is set to overkill, the stores are very limited for A/G CAS work (not even basic IR mavericks, seriously?), the steerpoint/nav system is buggy and unreliable, the TGP straight up refuses to work in certain instances, and the G tolerance of the pilot is about a full .5 or so too low at the limit. I'm sure I'm missing some things but that being said it's made some good progress from where it was just a short time ago. TWS alone was a very welcome addition.

It lacks an accurate altimeter which, in the real world, would mean it would be grounded. Brakes are not properly balanced and ground handling is unpredictable.

Gucci Bling is nice, but a properly fleshed out airplane would be nice.

I find myself quite often launching DCS with the intent on flying my Hornet only to find myself in the seat of my F-16.

Overall for EA I think it’s current state is fair. Obviously there is a lot of work to be done but the basics are there. I think the biggest problem I have with the F-16 at the moment is that the SA page drops my FPS considerably. Enough to make the game unplayable and where I have to keep the right MFD on the stores page.

But really for an EA aircraft we have a competent FCS and all the basics there to allow this aircraft to be enjoyable, especially in MP. Besides the SA page being a huge problem I think for such a young module it’s quite good and really makes me look forward to seeing this aircraft grow.

As much as I love my Hornet there is something about the Viper, even in EA, that keeps drawing me back.

Edit: Scratch that, I think the biggest problem about the F-16 is that I need to learn to do better in 1 v 2 air to air. :megalol:

I'm waiting longer to buy it. Right now it makes more sense to fly the Hornet.

It's early access guys, I know many don't like hearing that, but signing on to early access means signing on to things not working, features to come and bugs. The best way to avoid this is to avoid early access. Otherwise, we appreciate those that help us identify and report any and all issues with the module.

Im not saying this to be facetious, but instead of telling people to not buy EA products, why not just release them in a more complete state and utilize more closed testers? It might just save you and the people who can patiently wait from hearing all the whining about it not being complete.

Im not saying this to be facetious, but instead of telling people to not buy EA products, why not just release them in a more complete state and utilize more closed testers? It might just save you and the people who can patiently wait from hearing all the whining about it not being complete.

With all due respect but instead of suggesting ED not release EA products why don’t you just refrain from buying EA modules until they are considered complete? That way you don’t have an frustrations. ED never claimed that the F-16 would be perfect when released and the whole point of EA is to hammer out bugs and gather data when in play. So purchasing any EA product you know what you’re getting in to. NL makes such a great point in that the amount of data they can gather from EA must cut down the time it takes to identify and fix problems. I have to imagine that cuts down on development time by a lot considering this isn’t some run of the mill video game. A lot goes into every aspect of each module.

That being said you’re acting like the F-16 is ineffective in combat or that one can’t even take off with it. For being three months old in EA the F-16 has a lot of systems and features up and running. Look through server lists and you’ll find tons of people flying it.

I would recommend sitting down and actually learning the aircraft because there is quite a bit to learn and it is a whole other animal compared to the F/A-18. In fact it may even be a system shock going from one aircraft to the other. I guarantee you’ll get more out of the module by playing/learning it than complaining about lack of features on the forums.

I do get that you’re frustrated with lack of features but that is Early Access for you. It’s not as though it’s hidden, you knew what you were getting into.

I do get that you’re frustrated with lack of features but that is Early Access for you. It’s not as though it’s hidden, you knew what you were getting into.

^^^ This! :thumbup:

(and that's common sense to most of us, but it seems as if common sense is not so common here). ;)

It's early access guys, I know many don't like hearing that, but signing on to early access means signing on to things not working, features to come and bugs. The best way to avoid this is to avoid early access. Otherwise, we appreciate those that help us identify and report any and all issues with the module.

Just to clear the air, I'm by no means expecting a complete project for EA, NL. Didn't even suggest that in my post (hell, I even recognized the addition of TWS which was huge for ED in general on a full fidelity module). My gripes are purely with its current state based on the fact that the OP asked for opinions. Doesn't change the fact that it's EA or I knew FULLY that it would be a considerable amount of time before it is even considered near complete. :pilotfly:

I don’t think it’s too much to expect at least a proper six pack of instruments to be working from day one.

^^^ This! :thumbup:

 

(and that's common sense to most of us, but it seems as if common sense is not so common here). ;)

To be honest, I think some of us thought we would be getting an early access aircraft of the same quality as the Hornet was at it's day one release. Early access is fine and great, I fully understand and support it...the frustration is not about the lack of features, it's about the low quality and rushed and incomplete effort for what we do have. It is frustrating to encounter a bug, something that is incomplete, or just not functioning properly in virtually every aspect of flying and operating the Viper.

Maybe the Hornet (and Tomcat) spoiled us and set the bar too high.

I purchased the Viper with very high hopes, but have been so far let down when compared to my early access experience in the Hornet and Tomcat.

To be honest, I think some of us thought we would be getting an early access aircraft of the same quality as the Hornet was at it's day one release. Early access is fine and great, I fully understand and support it...the frustration is not about the lack of features, it's about the low quality and rushed and incomplete effort for what we do have. It is frustrating to encounter a bug, something that is incomplete, or just not functioning properly in virtually every aspect of flying and operating the Viper.

 

Maybe the Hornet (and Tomcat) spoiled us and set the bar too high.

I kind of agree. I see both sides of the issue as I'm a consumer like the rest of us and I've been in customer support roles on projects that got released in beta states. I have some sympathy for the devs but I also get the frustration. I think the issue for me is that the F-16 was less complete than I thought it would be (unmet expectations but there's not much that can be done about it in this case so I'll not hold it against anyone) and the fact that I'm not really impressed with how fast some of the historical products have been "completed". I know people are working hard, I'm not trying to suggest they aren't. The work that gets done is usually impressive and well received. I guess it's just sort of frustrating to grab a module in early access knowing it's not complete yet, then wait months and months and months to get features. It's how the process goes, and I'll not complain about it TOO much; however, it's frustrating. And I'd like to see a benchmark for what "complete" means as well. Maybe there is one, but for me, if it is missing any systems or features that were decided upon when it was announced, basic training missions (cold start, taxi-take off, landing, basic weapon systems, etc), a handful of single missions for SP and MP, a complete and accurate user manual, a texture template, and a campaign (yes a campaign) then the module isn't complete. I'll be a little lenient on the campaign but I think every module should come with some kind of campaign even if it's a relatively short one.

That's my cent and a half. Keep up the good work, Eagle Dynamics. There is a ton of stuff you all are doing really well so don't let up off the throttle. There will be frustrations for sure and many are valid, but it doesn't mean we don't appreciate what is being done. Thanks.

All these issues though are people getting bothered by their own expectations not being met. ED never said “we’re releasing the F-16 in EA but all systems initially implemented will be perfect and fully refined.” I don’t understand these arbitrary numbers of systems that should be complete/offered at EA launch or state of initial systems at launch. All of that is on the individual and not on ED who are trying to implement complicated systems into a game full of other complicated systems all interacting with each other.

In defense of the current state of the module though I have to say again that for being so young in EA there is a whole lot there and functional. Really one can do everything the F-18 can do minus carrier ops, a few guided weapons and SEAD on a decent level. Sure it’s not as refined yet but again this is EA and the module is 2-3 months old. One needs to realize that unexpected things will occur and considering that I would argue that the systems we have implemented so far are quite good. Heck, my biggest problem is a small one that has to do with an MFD page. Other than that I can fly, land, bomb, dogfight, BVR and we have RWS, TWS, D/L, IFF, TACAN, CMDS, AAR, Lights, TPOD, Coordinate Entering, HMD...and I’m sure I’m leaving some out. With those listed systems I have minimal issue. The biggest two are SA MFD & TPOD changing the waypoint which, in my opinion, aren’t big enough to prevent me from playing/enjoying the game while the fix is being worked on because it’s in EA and not a finished product.

If you’re buying into EA you’re more or less volunteering as a tester for that company while also gaining access to the current state of the project to enjoy. I don’t think it’s fair to ED to throw arbitrary expectations on them that they never promised at EA release.

I mean really it comes down to not buying/playing the module if you don’t want to play/test because that’s what EA is about as stated many many times before. Airing grievances based off of expectations you had that were never promised is not constructive nor do I think the Devs deserve to have that put on them. It’s like buying a pack of seeds and being pissed off that the seeds aren’t a bouquet of flowers and then going back to the store to complain about it.

Maybe I can better understand the issue if someone explained what the Viper is missing currently that prevents them from enjoying it. Because as I read these complaints I am trying to understand the opposing view.

I'm pretty happy with the current EA state and the development speed. It flies nicely (not sure if it's 100% accurate or not, I'm not a pilot) it looks good, it sounds good. Having a lot of fun flying it around just generally aviating. A2A it's great, I love the HMCS and the TWS system, radar is easy to control and datalink is brilliant. A2G yes I am looking forward to it having Mavericks and HARMs but for now I'm very entertained using cluster bombs and rocket pods (once I've called in a Hornet to carry out a SEAD mission on my target area!).

I'm certain there is a bug with the brakes, but I know ED will sort it at some point.

I'm looking forward to learning how to use more features once they're released.

Oh, some liveries please so we can tell who is who a little easier online.

Though still lacking behind the Hornet in terms of EA features, I simply could not resist the Viper's calling every time I fire up DCS. There's something "haunting" about this module :joystick:

We have a small team and some volunteer testers. And only a small amount will focus on the Viper.

 

Users want Early Access as early as they can get it. And most were happy to get it, even the state it was in.

 

You can't beat they scope and range of testing we get in early access, it's just not possible. And we appreciate each and every report we get, even when it's a known issue.

 

We stress over and over what Early Access is, and who might not enjoy it. And people will get mad something is missing no matter how complete everything else maybe.

Releasing a list of what is missing in the the EA release could help this (ie External lights are incomplete, damage model is incomplete etc) like Deka did with the JF-17. They made it pretty clear prior to release what wasn't complete prior to the release. Just a thought.

Perhaps it would be better to step away from the "early access" moniker and use Alpha / Beta access, so folks can match their expectations to what they are paying for.

With all due respect but instead of suggesting ED not release EA products why don’t you just refrain from buying EA modules until they are considered complete? That way you don’t have an frustrations. ED never claimed that the F-16 would be perfect when released and the whole point of EA is to hammer out bugs and gather data when in play. So purchasing any EA product you know what you’re getting in to. NL makes such a great point in that the amount of data they can gather from EA must cut down the time it takes to identify and fix problems. I have to imagine that cuts down on development time by a lot considering this isn’t some run of the mill video game. A lot goes into every aspect of each module.

 

That being said you’re acting like the F-16 is ineffective in combat or that one can’t even take off with it. For being three months old in EA the F-16 has a lot of systems and features up and running. Look through server lists and you’ll find tons of people flying it.

 

I would recommend sitting down and actually learning the aircraft because there is quite a bit to learn and it is a whole other animal compared to the F/A-18. In fact it may even be a system shock going from one aircraft to the other. I guarantee you’ll get more out of the module by playing/learning it than complaining about lack of features on the forums.

 

I do get that you’re frustrated with lack of features but that is Early Access for you. It’s not as though it’s hidden, you knew what you were getting into.

Totally agree with this. I knew what I was getting into when I bought the F-16 module and so far have immensely enjoyed it and eagerly anticipate the improvements as they come out.

I would suggest that if ED had to do even a fraction of the rigorous testing that a real mil flight sim has to go through before release - the cost to us would be some factor much higher than it is now and the timeframes on fixes would be many months or even years rather than weeks. The bottom line is that we are ALL free labor here for ED for those that choose to participate, and hopefully that not only keeps the costs low, but the fun factor high. Buying Early Access is completely optional and ED has been very upfront about what it is and what it is not.

Whilst the viper is clearly missing a lot, we knew that would be the case and that’s not dissimilar to the F18 launch. Personally I love flying it. Not even sure why, but it feels like a sports car after most aircraft.

I think it became better than i expected with last updates. For sure there are some bugs or missing feature but i like to use it. It become my most favorite aircraft along with tomcat and huey

My only complaints, rudder is too sensitive, veering to right during take off and landing and TGP and HUD are not synched.

After we get harm, maverick and harpoon; i am done.