F/A-18 vs F-16 Turn rate?

In Digital Combat "Simulator", the Flightmodel should be Realistic as possible.

 

 

 

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Then perhaps they should rename it to Digital Combat Game...it would save them a lot of work :thumbup:

Or we could all settle down and realize both the Hornet and Viper FMs are still WIP.

We have only to wait a little more

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I've done a bit of testing in game, the data is extracted from Tacview.

I don't pretend that this is the most accurate data ever, but i wanted to compare it to what is available to us (from the HAF manual, red lines).

And yes, the atmo conditions are set as in the manual.

Some interesting facts :

- Cannot get past mach 1,12, should be going a bit over 1,2.

- Note that the Hornet can get to 1,2 mach.

- At higher speeds the data is similar, taking into account some error margin.

- However, this changes at 550 knots, we cannot sustain the turn at 9g anymore.

- Around 450 knots, the maximum turn rate becomes almost what should be the sustained one.

- At 325, it falls even lower than that.

To me, it seems that either the engine is not providing enough power, the drag of the aircraft is too high, or a combination of these two.

Good work. Can see that what we have all been saying is correct. The hornet has roughly a 2 deg per sec sustained turn rate advantage above 350 KIAS compared to viper. This plainly should not be the case.

Did your viper have pylons on during testing? From what I've experienced in testing with buddies removing the pylons makes a significant difference.

I've done a bit of testing in game, the data is extracted from Tacview.

 

 

I don't pretend that this is the most accurate data ever, but i wanted to compare it to what is available to us (from the HAF manual, red lines).

 

 

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To me, it seems that either the engine is not providing enough power, the drag of the aircraft is too high, or a combination of these two.

Thanks very much for testing.

Is the rw chart you refer to the one with DI 0 and 22`000lbs at sea level (129 engine)?

If so, fuel should be 32 %, not 50% as mentioned on your test-plot...

basic weight. 19518 Lbs (source dcs)

Gun. 293 lbs (source dcs)

Fuel. 2189 lbs (32%) (source dcs)

Total. 22000 lbs

With 50% the viper would be 1´232 lbs to heavy…

If you would correct for that and go lower to sea level, you would see totally different turn rates for both, the hornet and the viper, most probably quite close to the rw datas.

I've redone some tests, this time removed all the pylons and changed the configuration to be more in line with the HAF data.

This is only for the maximum turn rate, i will do the sustained one and add more planes when i have more time.

I'm not familiar with FC3 planes, i never fly them, i added the F-15C to see how it behaves, and WOW !!

Great job. For sustained turn, you can also set the fuel level to an equal time-to-zero-fuel, to account for various internal fuel level and afterburner fuel efficiencies in different aircraft.

Maximum and sustained turn rates for the F-16 and F/A-18 (without override), and how they compare to HAF data.

25% fuel, clean, sea level.

So the issue seems to be with pylons on then, would you agree?

As a tip for your testing which may help out for raw performance is if you set g effects to "none" it removes the blackout effects could help out your testing.

As a tip for your testing which may help out for raw performance is if you set g effects to "none" it removes the blackout effects could help out your testing.

Yes, that's what i've done, if it wasn't desactivated i wouldn't be able to hold the 11g in the F-15.

Take it for what it is, certainly not the most precise measurements ever, but it should give a good picture of what's happening.

Some insights :

- The Tomcat has both an incredible maximum and sustained turn rate, i have a hard time to control it at low speeds.

- The F-16 seems really close to the available data in this configuration, it would need further testing at different altitudes and loadouts.

- The mirage has the best max turn rate, but the sustain is below its competitors, and it loses energy faster than the others when pulling hard.

- The JF seems to be an incredible knife-fighter, better than the Hornet in both ways, except at really low speed (around 200 knots) !

Again, this would need to be tested with other altitudes and loadouts, but for now, i'm done with it.

- The JF seems to be an incredible knife-fighter, better than the Hornet in both ways, except at really low speed (around 200 knots) !

Only good with that level of fuel. Fuel level has huge impact on TWR and STR in an JF-17.

Take it for what it is, certainly not the most precise measurements ever, but it should give a good picture of what's happening.

 

 

Some insights :

 

 

- The Tomcat has both an incredible maximum and sustained turn rate, i have a hard time to control it at low speeds.

 

 

- The F-16 seems really close to the available data in this configuration, it would need further testing at different altitudes and loadouts.

 

 

- The mirage has the best max turn rate, but the sustain is below its competitors, and it loses energy faster than the others when pulling hard.

 

 

- The JF seems to be an incredible knife-fighter, better than the Hornet in both ways, except at really low speed (around 200 knots) !

 

 

Again, this would need to be tested with other altitudes and loadouts, but for now, i'm done with it.

Are you sure of the hornet data?

I can get it to stay at around 22.5 deg/s sustained at 400knots TAS

Take it for what it is, certainly not the most precise measurements ever, but it should give a good picture of what's happening.

 

 

Some insights :

 

 

- The Tomcat has both an incredible maximum and sustained turn rate, i have a hard time to control it at low speeds.

 

 

- The F-16 seems really close to the available data in this configuration, it would need further testing at different altitudes and loadouts.

 

 

- The mirage has the best max turn rate, but the sustain is below its competitors, and it loses energy faster than the others when pulling hard.

 

 

- The JF seems to be an incredible knife-fighter, better than the Hornet in both ways, except at really low speed (around 200 knots) !

 

 

Again, this would need to be tested with other altitudes and loadouts, but for now, i'm done with it.

Btw, if you aren't already doing so, I would highly recommend to use the mission from here to measure turn rates, especially the sustained rate one, as it has a script which tells you if you are maintaining the flight parameters well enough for the turn to be counted as "sustained".

Are you sure of the hornet data?

 

I can get it to stay at around 22.5 deg/s sustained at 400knots TAS

You need to use the paddle for that, and the testing done by Pamenchan is without, which is correct if you want to compare the performance of the dcs planes to the rl charts/popular opinion.

Btw, if you aren't already doing so, I would highly recommend to use the mission from here to measure turn rates, especially the sustained rate one, as it has a script which tells you if you are maintaining the flight parameters well enough for the turn to be counted as "sustained".

 

 

You need to use the paddle for that, and the testing done by Pamenchan is without, which is correct if you want to compare the performance of the dcs planes to the rl charts/popular opinion.

I wasn't using the paddle for that, I wasn't even pulling all the way on the stick. If I pulled any further I would start losing speed.

I wasn't using the paddle for that, I wasn't even pulling all the way on the stick. If I pulled any further I would start losing speed.

You need to sustain a bit over 8g for that turn which is quite a bit more than the 7.5 the hornet gives you. In fact I just tried this, and at anything faster than 380 it just keeps accelerating.

Maximum and sustained turn rates for the F-16 and F/A-18 (without override), and how they compare to HAF data.

 

 

25% fuel, clean, sea level.

I was about to do the same tests this weekend, but you have beat me to it! :thumbup:

One has to admire how close they modeled the F-16 to the available data, and why only minor tweaks are expected in the future. :thumbup:

Can anyone please give me a link to that manual everyone's comparing the in-game plane to?

Not shure if the rules allow to link it. Just search for HAF-F16.pdf. It's on info.publicintelligence.net.

I'm new in DCS and this forum, but why on earth would anyone forbid posting links to sources? Providing the source of an information is an ESSENTIAL requirement for a civilized discussion and determining the truth about something. Without the links, all the discussions are just "believe it because some random people on the internet said so".

You are free to sent them to the developers but they can't allow for the official forum to be a place of exchanging sometimes classified documents because some institutions which have rights to them would force them to close the forum.

i've been off for a while, how's the situation for the guys still flying? the viper still can't fight the hornet on the 2-circle?

The thread that won't die.

I created a monster.