Modified files in CoreMods......MODS are no longer supported?!

NL, I get that you are trying to direct the conversation to the core question, which is 'what do modders want?" so I will try to distill what they are asking:

We want the SavedGames/Mods route to work in the same way that modifying the LUAs or other files directly in the CoreMods folder does now. We get that this is because of a new security concern with a cracked copy of DCS being released into the wild via some method leveraging the unlocked CoreMods folder in some way.

So again, is it possible to have changes put into the SavedGames/mods folder do this with the same capabilities as were previously available? Can a dev tell us if this can be done, and if so, how long will it take?

NL, I get that you are trying to direct the conversation to the core question, which is 'what do modders want?" so I will try to distill what they are asking:

 

 

 

We want the SavedGames/Mods route to work in the same way that modifying the LUAs or other files directly in the CoreMods folder does now. We get that this is because of a new security concern with a cracked copy of DCS being released into the wild via some method leveraging the unlocked CoreMods folder in some way.

 

 

So again, is it possible to have changes put into the SavedGames/mods folder do this with the same capabilities as were previously available? Can a dev tell us if this can be done, and if so, how long will it take?

+1

And thanks guys for asking what we would need!

Maybe a new option can be added in the autoexec.cfg file that allows for insertion of modified core files, custom weapons, or vehicles in saved games? Turning on this option will break integrity check immediately only allowing the ability to join none checked servers.

Thanks guys, keep focused on what you need, and we will get it worked out.

Thanks for listening guys. As stated above and by multiple other people, my main concern is the ability to change .lua files in coremods. Either by savedgames folder, or by something like OVGME.

+1

A common theme seems to be a concern for breaking IC for multiplayer. A large number of people enjoy mods and use apps like OvGME to turn mods completely on/off at will depending on whether they wish to fly single player versus multi-player.

DCS World is a fantastic military sandbox simulator when used in a single player or even in an AI only environment for creating "what-if" scenarios. If the Saved Games directory structure could be enabled to allow edits to any LUA file, I believe that is a win for Modders and has the potential to bring innovation to DCS World that might not be incorporated otherwise - for whatever the reason.

Personally, I would like to see a more liberal approach to allowing many aspects of the TDK to be released publicly so that a greater variety of static scenery objects could be developed by the mod community for inclusion in DCS World.

Thanks for the opportunity to express an opinion on this matter.

Do we need to have a separate thread on the requirements required for community modifications? We seem to have a few logical conflicts, IC vs community flexibility, likely means the way in which ic works needs to change, for example.

On the matter of integrity check: As far as I know some textures and stuff can be replaced from the saved games area and they overwrite the ones of the core games. This triggers integrity check the same way as modifying the file does. The a-4 had this problem in the beginning and I think for lua files it could work the same way.

All mods need to be in the /Saved Games/ Folder and not the DCS Main Program folder.

Doesn't work for many ones though... best example are altered input luas to add 2/3-way switches bindings for example. Or as in my case, I changed some default bindings in there because it's pain in the rear to do that all over again vor every single module. Having changed those files, I had to work that once. I just have to update my files sometimes when the original ones receive changes.

If ED would lock those up, my whole input config would be _AFU_ at once... Using the profile folder won't work here.

Another thing is sound modding things that reside in CoreMods, like turning down the massive volume of the Harrier in external views or just changing the sounds altogether... now impossible to achieve.

I'm glad I don't have to mess with the views.luas anymore because I found out how to to exact angle FOVs by adding input lua lines. But anyone who used to edit those files in order to limit their FOV scale to something like 30-90°, still is waiting for over 2 years now to have an option somewhere to just do that instead. Only workaround is messing with the axis curves which is highly imprecise and has the issue that we can't limit one of the 4 "corners" at all to get an even curve that actually has shifted end points.

In that special case I actually don't need that anymore thanks to VR, but anyway, it's something that hits many of us.

Also, simple as that, I added some kneeboard pages that go via the Mods\terrain subfolders. Not possible in the profile, I tried that. Some might be map specific (frequencies cheat sheet for example), for others it's just easier to edit just 4 terrains instead of ~30ish modules.

How do you get the game to recognize modified LUA files that reside in the CoreMods folder?

That's pretty easy. MD5 is the key. This generates a hash sum of let's say a file. Those are saved somewhere. If anything inside the file is changed, the hash sum would change as well and a simple check against the stored ones would reveal someone has messed with the files. Also commonly used to validate a download of big files so you can see if it's broken or not. And I bet the repair function uses this as well.

I don't get the issue with it though, from their perspective. There's IC for MP, so that guarantees no LUA edits in CoreMods and a level playing field.

Exactly what I thought - so what's the point? Let everyone change things for their SP - it wouldn't hurt anyone.

My biggest problem is, that small mods that fix stuff that should be within the basegame (like the ability to spawn clients anywhere on the ground, the above mentioned jtac mod or the coalition-modification mod by grimes), are now impossible.

 

If ED blocks the ability to fix them on our own, these things need to be implemented into the basegame, because many people rely on these mods.

+ lots. Anyone who's ever used the ME for less than an hour probably has the coalition mod at least ready to be switched on in case he/she forgot to change the coalitions in the beginning or suddenly had to change them just because some wanted assets weren't available for the usual "baddies" that you wanted to shoot at, like a MiG-23 in the PG map. ED's stock ME basically says "Sorry, you have to redo the whole mission now!" - I remember times when I went and opened up the thing with an archiver and edited the text files in there just to do that. Coming across that mod was such a relief. And that JTAC mod is bloddy essential, just to say the least. JTAC are completely useless without unless you drive a Hog that actually can make use of that coordinate system they use. But as lucky as it gets, exactly that plane has a datalink for those and you don't even have to input something at all...

I'm guessing their crash log inbox is flooded with mod errors and it makes it impossible to sort out real crash logs from user error ones.

 

On one hand we complain they take forever to fix things, but 10 to 1 they have tons of erroneous crash logs to sort through.

I know how they might feel with that. But there is an easier solution. The IC already checks for changed files. Just dump the lines that would show up on the MP screen to the log and a flag if something's not passed in general. In case of a support case, just see if that turns out true, go tell the user to unmod his installation and try again. That even could be automated... want to file a ticket? Make providing dcs.log mandatory, check it for the flag and have all the modded ones filtered out already. No hassle anymore and probably a much cleaner ticket system.

Thanks for reaching out, it's appreciated. In summary, I think everyone would be satisfied if it was possible to overwrite and supplement any file in the installation directory, with files placed in Saved Games, under a mirror file structure. Include the possibility of adding new files and textures. Furthermore, maintain access to the original files present in the installation directory, because we need to know the file names and the file contents, as well as the textures. Otherwise it's impossible to know what to modify and how.

That would enable modding to work as it did before, but without changing anything in the installation directory.

That way you just described would even make it so we wouldn't have to run the mod managers every time an update drops. And DCS should just have an option "mods enabled" then that you can switch off for troubleshooting and keep that IC to ensure noone cheats online if the server enforced IC on.

For me as it currently stands, the ED statement does not match their actions and let's not forget the great mod purge not so long ago.

They broke VoiceAttack and VAICOM Pro which both are payware the changes a few updates ago... shortly after I managed to make it work on a friggen non-English OS. Even had to "upgrade" to an Early Access pre-alpha product to actually be able to do just that. I take it it happened because of the encryption stuff and some luas not working anymore due to where they're located at. And well, the encryption of the sound files itself, we just can guess. Probably it's the original audio files from Boeing, you know that deedle-deedle etc. I guess ED wouldn't have any problems with us playing around with their own recordings. If that was the case, the thing would have happened over a decade earlier already. Basically, all things they do with some intention might unexpectedly break other things. It's not their intention to break our mods, just the usual rat tail a change brings as we'd say in Germany.

Your deck crew mod probably broke because of the complete rewrite of some of the basic carrier code in order to fix the deck sliding issues in MP. Would be awesome to have those for the other carriers that will probably never get the SC deck crew still.

innovation is often done or driven by Modders! start integrating the most used/requested ones and dont blockade improvements, my suggestion

This. And I bet every modder would be proud to see his work integrated to the default core in case that would happen... in many cases they just fill gaps that have been kept open by ED, adding lots to the whole DCS experience. And ED wouldn't need to write that stuff on their own.

Exactly what I thought - so what's the point? Let everyone change things for their SP - it wouldn't hurt anyone.

Not only SP. Several squadrons use mods like the JTAC one, on their servers and play with IC disabled. Lack of IC is not a problem if the server is locked and everyone there is a mature person.

I also agree with the sentiment that most mods aim to fix things rather than alter them for gameplay purposes. The aforementioned JTAC mod is a prime example. Another one is the ALE-47.lua edit for setting up F-18 countermeasure profiles, so you don't have to do it manually every single time. The same mod exists for the F-16, A-10C and AV-8B at least. And that's because there is no data cartridge or mission planning functionality implemented in the sim yet. Only the JF-17 allows you to create and save CMS profiles from within the sim.

And a personal issue of mine, the F-18 cockpit textures don't have roughmets for the glass textures (cockpit, gauges, DDI covers). The glass looks like it's a transparent piece of plastic, instead. I had to create my own and the sim won't read these from Saved Games, only from DCS\Mods\... And now they actually look like glass.

All of the above mods would stop working if some day we couldn't modify the installation directory.

Can't comment tech details of specific mods ATM, but, to my knowledge, *we never ever targeted any user mods*.

In the carrier crew mod case, most probably it was broken by the change, required to implement SC the way it is. Frankly speaking, I never knew there was a user mod like this at all. We can't keep track of everything users create.

 

Yes, there's lack of documentation, not enough communication, .. many issues, really.

DCS is an extremely complex piece of software and you will be surprised how small the core DCS team is.

 

Other sims may have better docs, better support for usermods, but they allow much less. These are related matters - the narrower your APIs are, the easier it is to document and support them, but the lesser (is it English language still?) they allow to implement. One will never be able to implement warfare in MSFS or XPlane.

c0ff, I think that you do not get it totally right. I am a developper professional since many years in a very large leading hitech company, and also an aerospace engineer. I little bit know the stuff and have some strong experience in VERY large software development projects. DCS World is definitively an achievement, and I enjoy using it and discovering it. I understand that the DCS core team is a small one, and this is right like that. But you will never get to the level you should be if you do not rely also on modders. You need them, and you should better take them into account (frankly, you don't....). Don't be suprprised that modders are breaking things if you do not document what is ok and what is wrong. Yes you should protect your core assets, but to do so you should deliver legit, open and documented ways to complement your core assets without touching them. Modders are not a threat to you, they are the mean to get DCS at a level you will never be able to be with your reduced team. They are filling the holes and showing the path for next winning addons. You should take them into account, support them, deliver the documentation (and APIs) they need. Also because they are good paying user, and attracting many other paying users that are also seduced by the whole solution you deliver, which is not only DCS out of the box, but also DCS with the mods that make it the right stuff. Your first thing to do is better documenting for modders. And also you should communicate, if you are making legitimate changes that you believe are going into the direction you want, make it, but 1/ communicate it before and 2/ get the tech support a little more modders-aware. When you break a mod, you do not make one modder pissed off, you make potentially hundreds of your users pissed off.

c0ff, I think that you do not get it totally right. I am a developper professional since many years in a very large leading hitech company, and also an aerospace engineer. I little bit know the stuff and have some strong experience in VERY large software development projects. DCS World is definitively an achievement, and I enjoy using it and discovering it. I understand that the DCS core team is a small one, and this is right like that. But you will never get to the level you should be if you do not rely also on modders. You need them, and you should better take them into account (frankly, you don't....). Don't be suprprised that modders are breaking things if you do not document what is ok and what is wrong. Yes you should protect your core assets, but to do so you should deliver legit, open and documented ways to complement your core assets without touching them. Modders are not a threat to you, they are the mean to get DCS at a level you will never be able to be with your reduced team. They are filling the holes and showing the path for next winning addons. You should take them into account, support them, deliver the documentation (and APIs) they need. Also because they are good paying user, and attracting many other paying users that are also seduced by the whole solution you deliver, which is not only DCS out of the box, but also DCS with the mods that make it the right stuff. Your first thing to do is better documenting for modders. And also you should communicate, if you are making legitimate changes that you believe are going into the direction you want, make it, but 1/ communicate it before and 2/ get the tech support a little more modders-aware. When you break a mod, you do not make one modder pissed off, you make potentially hundreds of your users pissed off.

thank you. You said everything needed saying.

I've reviewed the code and it turned out the checks inadvertently became more strict.

We will fix this in the nearest update.

 

Cannot comment on the specific mods, because it is not my area of expertise, apart from sound mods.

Thank you C0ff, that's outstanding! I know it's a short term fix to a long term problem but it's appreciated none the less!

I have 2 questions:

1] what exactly does this line in config. do, I saw the button upon startup, sound.editor = true

2]to use sound moding is it necessary to build in saved games an entire older style folder structure like there used to be in the core files and put the sdef and wav files there?

c0ff, I think that you do not get it totally right. I am a developper professional since many years in a very large leading hitech company, and also an aerospace engineer. I little bit know the stuff and have some strong experience in VERY large software development projects. DCS World is definitively an achievement, and I enjoy using it and discovering it. I understand that the DCS core team is a small one, and this is right like that. But you will never get to the level you should be if you do not rely also on modders. You need them, and you should better take them into account (frankly, you don't....). Don't be suprprised that modders are breaking things if you do not document what is ok and what is wrong. Yes you should protect your core assets, but to do so you should deliver legit, open and documented ways to complement your core assets without touching them. Modders are not a threat to you, they are the mean to get DCS at a level you will never be able to be with your reduced team. They are filling the holes and showing the path for next winning addons. You should take them into account, support them, deliver the documentation (and APIs) they need. Also because they are good paying user, and attracting many other paying users that are also seduced by the whole solution you deliver, which is not only DCS out of the box, but also DCS with the mods that make it the right stuff. Your first thing to do is better documenting for modders. And also you should communicate, if you are making legitimate changes that you believe are going into the direction you want, make it, but 1/ communicate it before and 2/ get the tech support a little more modders-aware. When you break a mod, you do not make one modder pissed off, you make potentially hundreds of your users pissed off.

Agree 100%

Thank you, C0ff.

I'm hoping we'll be able to edit .lua files from Coremods if we have them stored in the saved games folder. Modding really is essential for a lot of what we do in DCS.

Rob.

Thank you c0ff, I am hoping this will prove to be the solution.

Please, ask sound related questions here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=98014

 

All available docs are in Doc/Sounds/ folder of your DCS install. If it is not enough, please ask in the thread mentioned above.

Thanks for the follow-up.

Works now after the hotfix update! Great!

Thank you so much for listening! You guys at ED rock! not all developers would change their mind with stuff like this and we appreciate it!!

Yes thank you very much for the fix!