I am having trouble flying the P-51D

First, I want to complement the DCS developers. This sim is INEDIBLE! The fields and realism are first rate. I LOVE THIS SIM!!! I want to start by stating that YES, I'm American. I also want to state that I realize that all aircraft are flown with a certain amount of skills and practice. I own all the WWII plane modules. All the aircraft fly really well except the Mustang. Maybe this module is being worked on as I type this. Let me know if you feel the same way I do about what I'm about to type. This is just my own personal opinion, and I highly respect the opinion of others'. Chime in with what you think about the flight characteristics of the Mustang vs. all the other WWII aircraft. Here's my opinion so far...

The Mustang flies just AWFUL! In WWII, was the Mustang really this bad? Tip stalls with the ever so slightest touch of the ailerons or rudder? Do you really have to be over 300 mph to NOT tip stall? If you do get lucky enough to actually turn, your wings rip off. I AM watching my G gauge very carefully by the way. The Spitfire is favored quite a bit by the developers - I understand; I believe this is a UK developed game. But, let's get the Mustang up to how it actually performed. (LOVE the Spit by the way, and have most of my kills in it)

Here are some facts...

1) In any single theater of operations, the top kills would be the F6F Hellcat, with 5,168 kills in the Pacific Theater of Operations. Next would the P-51 Mustang with 4,950 kills in the European Theater of Operations.

2) For the entire war combined, all theaters, the most kills would be by the P-51 Mustang with 5,954 kills in ETO, MTO, PTO, and CBI all combined, followed by the Hellcat with 5,168 in PTO and ETO.

These numbers come from a 1945-1946 report compiled by the US Navy for the Hellcat and the Air Force Historical Society for the P-51.

If it actually flew the way it does here in DCS, the Mustang would have all been destroyed by the enemy in 2 months!

What needs to happen to have the developers work on the Mustangs flight characteristics? Improve the model to the way it actually flew I mean... I believe George Preddy Jr. received the most kills in the P-51, but surely not in the DCS version. He would have been dead in his first dogfight. Please respond understanding that I absolutely LOVE THIS SIM, I LOVE the graphics and realism it gives us. I also LOVE the other WWII aircraft!!!! I have not played any other game/sim since I purchased my first DCS module, and I don't plan on quitting.

C4

First of all, you don't need to post the exact same question to 3 different threads. That's called cross-posting and means you're stealing our time.

Second, if the flight model was that bad, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, this had already been known? If so, how much time have you spent searching for reports of the problem that you encountered?

Third, my experience says that half the people who claim the flight model of a particular module is too terrible to cope with just don't have the first idea of what they're talking about. The other half have a controller conflict. And most of them fall into both groups. :D

(I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the likelihood of you being wrong versus you having found an enormous deviation in the module's flight model is... quite high).

Seriously. Check your controller bindings, especially the axis bindings. Are you absolutely sure that there's nothing wrong? No toe brakes assigned to pitch or roll or rudder, or something of that kind?

If the controller setup is fine, please post a track of what you experienced in a short mission, and describe what you believe should have happened instead. That way we can at least establish some kind of common ground in order to determine whether there's something wrong with the FM or whether you're just doing it wrong.

Let us know if you need help posting tracks.

doesn't sound right, make sure your control axes aren't being mixed up -- if you have multiple controllers dcs will by default replicate axes across all of them, which will lead to stuff like throttle simultaneously deflecting rudder, etc. leading to some pretty odd behaviors.

edit: listen to yurgon, he's covered it pretty well. solving problems starts from describing the problem, not the expectation.

I shared much of your frustration in the beginning.

I still share your frustration over the wing stalls but I have come to realize that it is "likely" 100% Pilot Error (although I'm still having a hard time swallowing that !!).

Unfortunately, you have come in at a time when one of the BEST WWII Servers has been offline for a while, while we wait for the Normandy Map to be out of Alpha (or whatever state it's in ... it's early) and for the dust to settle with regards to Mission Creation and Updates which cause a ton of repetitive work and repairs to missions.

Said Server was/is the "Dogs of War" server (and flight team I still consider myself a member of ... waiting patiently for things to restart ... soon I hope).

In the meantime, there are plenty of online WWII servers where you can get lots of practice with and against live pilots as well as AI. I recommend you jump into any you can and don't be afraid to ask for tips (eg: using TeamSpeak or whatever that server or those pilots are using. I think TS is the most popular).

I'd be happy to help you with getting over most of the humps in the Mustang if you like (PM me if you wish to discuss this further).

I certainly know of a few Excellent Mustang Pilots (WAY better than me) that would surely help you out if I can hook up with them .. it has been a while but they are still out there. That's a Shout Out to Sea_Quark and Net_Man ... wherever you are !

Finally, one thing that does ultimately make a big difference is having your Hotas "tuned" with appropriate Curves and things that can make the Flight Controls react and respond more naturally and realistically and I think you will find that this may eliminate much of your Stall issues ... but likely not all !

Happy Flights

PS> ALWAYS assume it's Pilot Error before suggesting it's ED and Flight Models. While the latter possibilities aren't out of the question, it's usually the former-mentioned issue. Again, this can be hard to swallow at times ... but practice and experience are crucial with all DCS SIM Aircraft because this is NOT a Game ! The Game only begins when you get good.

Wow.. there weren't any replies when I started typing.

LOL

When I first got DCS: P-51D, I was like "wow!", this was the first sim I've seen where the Mustang did not fly like a brick but was rather agile.

Do not mean to sound like a prick, but your list of facts have no relevance in judging a flight model.

These old birds didn't like high AoAs that happen when the stick gets yanked, and most of us have sticks that are like 5-6 times shorter than the real thing, which compounds the issue. Spitfire indeed was more happy with that kind of flying, so was the 109 with its slats. Mustang's laminar flow wings didn't particularly appreciate being pushed beyond their limits however, and would stall. Mustang's advantages were when it was kept fast.

Force feedback sticks make a big difference in helping anticipate when and where you are pulling too much at a particular speed. It is quite harder without, but with practice one can get used to limits using a normal stick too.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00ED using Tapatalk

First off. INEDIBLE means something is unfit to eat. Is that the word you were after?

Second is i'd bet anything your problem is pilot error as has been said already. Work on setting up you stick better and work on being more gentle with the elevator. Plus, keep the speed up.

I've been a fan of the P-51 since the 40's. If it was as bad as you say I would be complaining and i'm not. It flys fine. It has a few problems like the .50's seem a bit weak, but flight model is not one of them.

I think a lot of DCS WWII planes are pretty tricky to start with, but there are a few things you can try. Make sure there are no conflicts in controller settings, and that one function is assigned to one controller button or axis. I have umpteen peripherals, wheel, button box, Xbox controller etc in my PC, and when you first set up a plane, it defaults to assigning the same function to many controllers, which makes planes almost impossible to fly, so delete all the unwanted assignments.

To get started you could dial in a bit of take off/rudder assistance in the options, this can help you get more familiar with the plane. The Mustang settles at about 200mph and above, and you need to be fairly gentle with the inputs.

If you set the saturation curve on your joystick to about 20-25%, that will also help you be smooth.

Finally read up in the forum on techniques and practise a lot. I'm no expert, and could barely fly both the Mustang and the Spitfire when I first started, despite having some experience in other flight sims, but luckily you can teach yourself through trial and error unlike a real pilot. Good luck and stick with it.

Also, I agree, most of the planes in DCS are inedible

I think a lot of DCS WWII planes are pretty tricky to start with, but there are a few things you can try. Make sure there are no conflicts in controller settings, and that one function is assigned to one controller button or axis. I have umpteen peripherals, wheel, button box, Xbox controller etc in my PC, and when you first set up a plane, it defaults to assigning the same function to many controllers, which makes planes almost impossible to fly, so delete all the unwanted assignments.

To get started you could dial in a bit of take off/rudder assistance in the options, this can help you get more familiar with the plane. The Mustang settles at about 200mph and above, and you need to be fairly gentle with the inputs.

If you set the saturation curve on your joystick to about 20-25%, that will also help you be smooth.

Finally read up in the forum on techniques and practise a lot. I'm no expert, and could barely fly both the Mustang and the Spitfire when I first started, despite having some experience in other flight sims, but luckily you can teach yourself through trial and error unlike a real pilot. Good luck and stick with it.

Also, I agree, most of the planes in DCS are inedible

There's your problem right there. You aren't supposed to eat it. :)

Chuck, welcome to the forums. Also... psssssst....

...the game is actually Russia-developed...

... I hope this tidbit won't start any tinfoil-hat-level theories in your head though ;).

You're probably the first guy who complains about Mustang's handling while being OK with other warbirds, for most new guys here it's the other way around :D. I'd say the plane is the most pilot-friendly in all speeds and manoeuvres of them all (maybe with Spitfire being exception in low speed turns). That leads me to suspicion that your joystick might be set up in a bit too agressive way, or so is your handling of the plane, or both. Experiment with some curve and saturation tweaking of your axes, that should help.

As for loosing the wings, keep in mind that the ultimate load for the 9000 lbs weight (i.e. around 34% fuel) above 300 mph was 10.5G. If you do flying with default quick-mission-set 80% of fuel, it's going to be only 6.5G (during the first pull out, and even less during each subsequent one, as the DCS models partial structural failure between limit load and the ulitmate load!). Reduce your fuel load! On those small maps we have in this sim, you don't need most of it anyway.

Reduce your fuel load! On those small maps we have in this sim, you don't need most of it anyway.

this is a very good advice. look at the weight of the fuel, not %.

one really good dcs P-51 pilot once told me: "if you want to learn to fly the mustang, learn to fly it slow".

now that is a really good advice. flying it slow teaches you how your throttle affects controlling the plane. reducing and increasing throttle usually requires correcting inputs on other axises. minimal but crucial corrections, especially with high aoa. you propably would feel the need for them in your a** irl, but since you dont feel anything in sim, it's hard to learn it.

Ahhh yes! The first time flying the Mustang! I remember it well, and I remember thinking exactly what the OP must be thinking right now.

I cannot really add much to the advice already offered to you, but I can offer you comfort in the fact that you are not the only one to ever suffer this feeling. When I started flying the P-51, I was banned from the forums due to my attitude toward it and DCS at that point. After study, practice, and a lot of broken planes, I realized that most of the issue was that I was expecting DCS planes to fly like XPlanes. That just isn't gonna happen here.

The truth is that DCS has the flight model pretty accurately done and most other sims do not. You just have to get use to the flight model and learn to understand it's rules. I have had real world pilots sit with me and watch me fly this sim. They were all pretty impressed at the accuracy of DCS. Although I have to be honest and confess that I have never had a P-51 pilot sit with me, I have had 2 A-10 pilots, a Hawk pilot, 2 Huey pilots, and 2 guys who flew with P-51 pilots and were pilots themselves. If you can't trust that much experience then who can you trust?

When I first flew the P-51 in DCS I could barely keep it steady and level because I expected the flight model that I had flown in the other sims that let me pretty much do whatever I wanted within reason.

When I started the DCS P-51 I could not for the life of me do much more than fly the damn thing. Now I fly air to air combat and win against AI and other players 2/3 rds of the time.

Just hang out on the forums, practice, learn the plane, and give it time. You'll be an ace in no time.

I do have a question for the OP though. You say that the P-51 is impossible to fly. But many people cannot even get the 109, or the Spitfire off the ground much less fly them in the beginning. I'm finding it pretty astounding that you are having a hard time with the P-51 as it's the easiest of the WWII modules to deal with, yet the harder planes aren't an issue for you. Maybe I'm crazy but I fly all 4 of them regularly and the P-51 is the easiest by far.

 

What needs to happen to have the developers work on the Mustangs flight characteristics? Improve the model to the way it actually flew I mean... I believe George Preddy Jr. received the most kills in the P-51, but surely not in the DCS version. He would have been dead in his first dogfight. Please respond understanding that I absolutely LOVE THIS SIM, I LOVE the graphics and realism it gives us. I also LOVE the other WWII aircraft!!!! I have not played any other game/sim since I purchased my first DCS module, and I don't plan on quitting.

 

C4

Nothing to add here except, welcome to the world of DCS ChuckIV.:thumbup:

All the guy's here that work on developing the aircraft for DCS are as passionate as you in getting these aircraft extremely accurate for this simulation we have. It's not a "game" like the past that make you easily feel like the hero in more of a scripted fashion, you need to earn the right here in these very accurate simulated aircraft, DCS is more of a "realistic" military training simulation, well they do that to IRL.;)

Ive seen a similar attitude in iracing where guy's think this "game" will be way too easy for them, there played all the other racing sims before this will be no different and way to easy, then they become very quite after there first few races.:music_whistling:

DCS is a lot different to any other "sim games" you have played before, the aircraft are created from things such as wind tunnel data test and CFD test data.

If you can find a fault, by all means fully document the fault found and report it in the bug section, just make sure you have some data to back up the accusations you have, because we will test them in the sim.:)

Again, welcome to the forums ChuckIV

P.S. Your control setup really matters at this level, just like the other realistic car sim I mentioned, guy's spend thousands for that edge when the simulation is this good.

.

What needs to happen to have the developers work on the Mustangs flight characteristics? Improve the model to the way it actually flew I mean... I believe George Preddy Jr. received the most kills in the P-51, but surely not in the DCS version. He would have been dead in his first dogfight. Please respond understanding that I absolutely LOVE THIS SIM, I LOVE the graphics and realism it gives us. I also LOVE the other WWII aircraft!!!! I have not played any other game/sim since I purchased my first DCS module, and I don't plan on quitting.

 

C4

Go get some friends who are experts in the Mustang, take off in a formation of 30-40, then bounce a formation of 10-15 109s with novices at the controls. I think you wouldn't have any issues with the P-51 FM.

All I'm saying is that George Preddy ddin't dogfight 1 on 1 with Luftwaffe experts at low altitudes with a short plastic stick.

The DCS P-51 FM has been developed / tested/ confirmed by real P-51 pilots, and it's the most accurate Mustang sim that's out there. The same is true for other prop planes. Nowhere in the same league as some other contemporary sims, but well above them, and if you expect something similar, you're in for a disappointment.

Go get some friends who are experts in the Mustang, take off in a formation of 30-40, then bounce a formation of 10-15 109s with novices at the controls. I think you wouldn't have any issues with the P-51 FM.

 

All I'm saying is that George Preddy ddin't dogfight 1 on 1 with Luftwaffe experts at low altitudes with a short plastic stick.

 

The DCS P-51 FM has been developed / tested/ confirmed by real P-51 pilots, and it's the most accurate Mustang sim that's out there. The same is true for other prop planes. Nowhere in the same league as some other contemporary sims, but well above them, and if you expect something similar, you're in for a disappointment.

I know you are trying to make a point. But usually US fighter escort was outnumbered 2:1 and on ocasions higher even reaching 10:1. Allies had more planes in total, but bombers are so slow they had to make rotations. So only one Fighter Group was able to defend a bomber formation at a time. Luftwaffe in the west recognised that throwing small groups at the bomber formations was a bad idea, that is why on many ocasions, when not enough planes were ready, not a single German fighter was trying to intercept the bombers.

But it is the same for the 109. How most of those great German aces got their kill counts? On obselete Soviet planes with pilots that had 7h flight time and were only taught to take off and land.

First, I want to complement the DCS developers. This sim is INEDIBLE! The fields and realism are first rate. I LOVE THIS SIM!!! I want to start by stating that YES, I'm American. I also want to state that I realize that all aircraft are flown with a certain amount of skills and practice. I own all the WWII plane modules. All the aircraft fly really well except the Mustang. Maybe this module is being worked on as I type this. Let me know if you feel the same way I do about what I'm about to type. This is just my own personal opinion, and I highly respect the opinion of others'. Chime in with what you think about the flight characteristics of the Mustang vs. all the other WWII aircraft. Here's my opinion so far...

 

The Mustang flies just AWFUL! In WWII, was the Mustang really this bad? Tip stalls with the ever so slightest touch of the ailerons or rudder? Do you really have to be over 300 mph to NOT tip stall? If you do get lucky enough to actually turn, your wings rip off. I AM watching my G gauge very carefully by the way. The Spitfire is favored quite a bit by the developers - I understand; I believe this is a UK developed game. But, let's get the Mustang up to how it actually performed. (LOVE the Spit by the way, and have most of my kills in it)

Here are some facts...

 

1) In any single theater of operations, the top kills would be the F6F Hellcat, with 5,168 kills in the Pacific Theater of Operations. Next would the P-51 Mustang with 4,950 kills in the European Theater of Operations.

 

2) For the entire war combined, all theaters, the most kills would be by the P-51 Mustang with 5,954 kills in ETO, MTO, PTO, and CBI all combined, followed by the Hellcat with 5,168 in PTO and ETO.

 

These numbers come from a 1945-1946 report compiled by the US Navy for the Hellcat and the Air Force Historical Society for the P-51.

 

If it actually flew the way it does here in DCS, the Mustang would have all been destroyed by the enemy in 2 months!

 

What needs to happen to have the developers work on the Mustangs flight characteristics? Improve the model to the way it actually flew I mean... I believe George Preddy Jr. received the most kills in the P-51, but surely not in the DCS version. He would have been dead in his first dogfight. Please respond understanding that I absolutely LOVE THIS SIM, I LOVE the graphics and realism it gives us. I also LOVE the other WWII aircraft!!!! I have not played any other game/sim since I purchased my first DCS module, and I don't plan on quitting.

 

C4

First you have to see to believe, I get it. Let me show you something then:

You can do it too. Just practice.:pilotfly:

I know you are trying to make a point. But usually US fighter escort was outnumbered 2:1 and on ocasions higher even reaching 10:1. Allies had more planes in total, but bombers are so slow they had to make rotations. So only one Fighter Group was able to defend a bomber formation at a time. Luftwaffe in the west recognised that throwing small groups at the bomber formations was a bad idea, that is why on many ocasions, when not enough planes were ready, not a single German fighter was trying to intercept the bombers.

 

But it is the same for the 109. How most of those great German aces got their kill counts? On obselete Soviet planes with pilots that had 7h flight time and were only taught to take off and land.

Well, maybe in 1943, but in late 1944/45 the fighter escorts outnumbered the Germans. I've read books by Hungarian 109 pilots recounting how they attacked 6-700 bombers escorted by 100+ Mustangs with their flight of 20 109s. It was practically suicide.

Also, even in 1943, the Germans didn't attack the escort. They were ordered to go for the bombers. It makes a huge difference.

Well, maybe in 1943, but in late 1944/45 the fighter escorts outnumbered the Germans. I've read books by Hungarian 109 pilots recounting how they attacked 6-700 bombers escorted by 100+ Mustangs with their flight of 20 109s. It was practically suicide.

 

Also, even in 1943, the Germans didn't attack the escort. They were ordered to go for the bombers. It makes a huge difference.

Hungarians did not fight on the Western front. There is a difference between Romanian oil fields and attacks on Ruhr and Berlin :)

And Germans did attack the escorts. The D9 and 109's were suppose to support Fw190A's and zerstörers. Some German fighter groups were acting as fighter interception.

Well, maybe in 1943, but in late 1944/45 the fighter escorts outnumbered the Germans. I've read books by Hungarian 109 pilots recounting how they attacked 6-700 bombers escorted by 100+ Mustangs with their flight of 20 109s. It was practically suicide.

 

Also, even in 1943, the Germans didn't attack the escort. They were ordered to go for the bombers. It makes a huge difference.

That may be somewhat true at times, but many times the P-51 pilot was out numbered and still came out ahead.

As for the high number of kills the German pilots had? That's mainly due to easy pickings as was said by Solty, but also because the German pilots had to fly the whole war. We cared more for our pilots and didn't make them do that.

Before we answer Chuck anymore. He hasn't been back to this forum since asking the question two days ago.

First you have to see to believe, I get it. Let me show you something then:

 

You can do it too. Just practice.:pilotfly:

LOL...Even busted up and no sight you beat them. Excellent!

Before we answer Chuck anymore. He hasn't been back to this forum since asking the question two days ago.

Yes, I was wondering where he'd gone, his post certainly lit the fuse

interesting read though.

I have to agree with Chuck. Just downloaded the P51 today after enjoying the TF51 for awhile and wanting guns.

The flight model appears to be bugged... thought it was me so.....

Set, checked and rechecked my control axes. No duplications.

Set no weapons, just .50 cal at 50%

Set fuel load at 50%

Altitude 1500ft or so.

Typical Normandy sunny day.

That thing would barely take of from the runway, while the rudder is stupidly and hugely sensitive. Very hard to lift the nose, resulting in a bouncing takeoff.

In the air the thing does not seem to want to go faster than maybe 220mph, despite 5 inches and 2750 rpm.

Very poor response in pitch, it just mushes and I have mushed into the ground more than once.

It tip stalls like crazy and adverse aileron yaw is brutal, even at moderate control inputs; leading to snap rolls in the opposite direction. The CofG appears to be somewhere far forward and despite the settings, it behaves like it's way overloaded.

Considering I gave been flying the TF all weekend with full fuel in the mains quite happily then jumping into the lightly loaded P51 and found it barely controllable, something is going wrong with recent downloads, maybe something became corrupted at ED, or someone's torrent is corrupted.

Mods this needs reporting. The flight model is crap.

No reporting is needed. You've done something wrong. That's not how the DCS P-51 flys.