TGP for Air to Air?

Hi

I can't seem to Boresight my TGP in A2A mode although I can in A2G mode. So although I can se planes flying in front of me i'm not seeing a TDC icon(Diamond) I can slew around to put on the planes. In fact i'm not even sure where the TGP is pointing.

Any help appreciated.

IIRC the TGP in AA mode has much lower slew possibilities than in AG mode, meaning you will have to change your heading in order to track your target more efficiently. I will havo to double check that and will let you know.

i have never noticed a slew range difference. the main problem as eluded to is that there is no cue on the HUD when in A2A mode, but the TGP will bore sight in the normal manner. If you are hunting helos, A2G mode is better (as is using mavericks instead of AIM-9s, IR impervious and if it hits it WILL splash the target). I even use A2G mode if I am looking for fighters with the TGP, it is harder to get the initial track, but I find it overall easier to use.

A-A mode is pointless. From what i have read/tried on it. It would be nice if someone could explain how to use it efficiently. Or even make a MOD that when A-A is selected it does what we would all hope and dream for as if HMCS would take over and some cool target acquisition 40km out. IT IS A GAME RIGHT?

A game based on realistic operation to the extent that is possible and reasonable. I dont want some fake ghost recon hud that never could or will exist on my sim, thanks.

Apparently it's the way the real aircraft works (maybe this has changed with newer versions).

A workaround is to slave your AIM-9 to the TGP, so the AIM-9 seeker symbol will be coincident with the TGP line of sight

This is exactually same as the real world Suit 2 A-10C. You are supposed to use the depressable pipper as your reference of TGP broadcasting point, set the depressable pipper to 41 mile position. And use the white dot(forgot the name of this) on your TGP screen to know where is your TGP pointing at...

AA Mode of the TGP is very useful. As a matter of fact, if I have a vehicle ground target that's in the bush or I'm having a hard time spotting it, I'll sometimes switch to AA mode and let it put a cross on target for me. As IRL it contains an algorithm that allows the TGP to optically filter contacts (places a cross on objects that have unnatural features that deviate from terrain).

As for it's intended use; if you can get a quick TGP lock on an air threat then slave your Sidewinder head to it and rifle, that can be a huge asset in allowing you to react quicker than the threat. Those seconds usually count.

I would go as far as to say that if you're engaging in AA operations without TGP AA, you're introducing unnecessary risk to your mission. It can find an aircraft a lot faster than the MK1 Eyeball.. and target fixation (staring at a limited area for a long time) will distract a pilot from possible threats and dangerously narrow your situational awareness.

A few tips:

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• Get a healthy standoff distance from the target
  
  • 
    
  • This allows you to have a much more stable seeker head
    
  • It also allows you to widen the field of view to let the software do it's work
    

   

  [*]I like to quickly mark the area of probable threat using TAD, then get down in the terrain and gain some distance, then slave TGP to mark before I unmask to start the search

  [*]If you have to make more than one pass, slave to Z Mark so you can find it again quickly.. the seeker head in AA doesn't hold lock on aircraft as well as AG does a ground point

  [*]If you're under the target and put sky behind it, the seeker head will find the target much faster

Here are a few vids on the subject:

Take a look at the A-10C Manual pg. 340.

Here's an excerpt for anyone who refuses to open the manual:

This is exactually same as the real world Suit 2 A-10C.

Operational Flight Program (OFP) 2 - or Suite 2 - was fielded for the A-10A, not the A-10C.

The A-10C wasn't created until fielding of the Suite 3 Precision Engagement (PE) OFP, which actually came AFTER Suite 4 was fielded for many A-10A's. True story.

You are supposed to use the depressable pipper as your reference of TGP broadcasting point, set the depressable pipper to 41 mile position.

The OFP modeled (kinda) by DCS has a TGP diamond in A-A mode when the TGP LOS is at boresight, however this is not simulated. As a crutch, you can certainly set the Depressible Pipper to 41 mils to approximate the boresight LOS.

However, if you have a bandit in sight, in the HUD FOV, why on Earth would you pull him to the Depressible Pipper in order to go heads-down and screw with the TGP when you should be BFMing the sonofabitch, driving to the AIM-9 WEZ, or pulling him to the EEGS/MRGS for a gunshot?

And use the white dot(forgot the name of this) on your TGP screen to know where is your TGP pointing at...

The white dot is called the Situational Awareness Cue. But in a practical application of the TGP in A-A mode, can you really see yourself staring down at a tiny white dot on a 5" MFCD while maneuvering your aircraft against a bandit who is WVR and trying to kill you? It's there as a crosscheck during low-workload periods, like medium-altitude sensor search, not A-A combat.

The TGP, as modeled in DCS, does not have a genuine A-A capability because certain characteristics are not simulated.

No, it wouldn't be practical to use AA TGP to for an air contact that's already in visual. It's used to find targets optically for which you don't already have a visual.

The HUD diamond would be of little use... you want to be looking at the Situational Awareness Cue (white dot on TGP). This is essentially your 'top down radar' for a single target. It will show you the direction of the target aircraft to help you maintain situational awareness. It will also serve as a horizontal reference of relative targeting head direction during acquisition. Your vertical reference is simply the horizon.

You should have a good standoff distance from the probable target, and use the TGP AA to spot what the naked eye couldn't possible track. So basically, if the target is close enough to spot with the naked eye, you should be heads up, but if you can't find it due to separation, you should be heads down in the TGP AA. So it's value is:

1. Pick out distant target that your eye wouldn't be able to find

2. Lock Air Target to auto-slew Sidewinder seeker head

3. Maintain situational awareness of target direction through TGP SA Cue

That's pretty much it. See my previous post above for method.

I never really botheres using A-A mode. If the target is BVR, there is nothing (active) you can do, if the target is WVR you don't need it

If you're not WVR of the bandit, you should not be pressing to the merge in an A-10. The steadfast rule in the A-10 is that you are ALWAYS defensive. You always attempt to defeat the threat with turns and separate. You commit to kill the bandit ONLY if merged and you cannot separate.

So again, if you're dicking around with the A-A TGP actually LOOKING for a fight, you're doing it wrong.

Wow thank you for nice clearfications!

Agreed. If you spot air threats it's time to head for safety and call for air superiority to clear the area. Question is this; you're doing CSAR or ECAS, all CAP are otherwise tasked, and the area is out of the AEW pocket (not as unlikely as it may sound). You're ingressing blind of assets, but you have no time to waste.. what do you do:

1. Sweep the area for air and ground threats with your eyeballs

2. Use your sensors to look for threats (any available.. for what they're worth.. )

I would postulate that since WVR means you're already in trouble, why not use any assets available to spot them before WVR so you can avoid them?

The other scenario is helos. They can be a real bitch to pick out of the terrain beyond about 5 cliks. I understand Hawg drivers went RWT hunting during Desert Storm.. they love it! Shame a lot of those stories are probably still classified. Hope we get to hear them one day.

I agree that the TGP AA is a limited sensor that won't be used every flight.. but I also think everyone should become familiar enough to use it to full effect if the need arises.

What I'm trying to say is; in my humble opinion, TGP AA shouldn't be dismissed as non-functional.

What I'm trying to say is; in my humble opinion, TGP AA shouldn't be dismissed as non-functional.

While that's fine if that's how you choose to play, real world TTPs do not agree with you. While you're looking thought the TGP searching for aircraft, you're breaking pretty much every wingman/flight lead contract out there.

The LiTENINGs AA mode is there because it's part of the LITENING pod itself, not the aircraft it's attached to.

It's another case, as often happens here, of people finding solutions to problems that don't really exist.

In the commercial for their Sniper ATP Lockheed Martin says it is great for visual identification of targets, and I guess you can really use it for that purpose, but it only makes sense if you already have radar contact and slave the TGP to the radar. Rafael can do the same with the Litening II of course.

So while it may make sense for a F-16 pilot, the Hog driver doesn't really have a reason to use it. Like Eddie said, the pod provides that possibility, but it isn't useful in the A-10.

Thanks for all replies as always!!

Eddie, you are asserting that the TGP AA should be dismissed all together, and it's part of the aircraft sensors by... accident?

It's another case, as often happens here, of people finding solutions to problems that don't really exist.

Shut me down rudely, by all means but if you're going to, please help me understand where I'm in error. I was providing how I personally and successfully find value in the sensor, but you seem to be stating that there's a practical reason why I'm wasting my time with it. Be sure to read my previous post thoroughly so you understand it.. then go ahead and school me brother. I'm not suggesting an argument, on the contrary I humbly stand ready to learn from you.

Eddie, you are asserting that the TGP AA should be dismissed all together, and it's part of the aircraft sensors by... accident?

It isn't part of the aircraft's sensors. It's part of the LITENING pod, as in part of its software which is the same regardless of the aircraft to which it is attached.

In much the same way, if someone decided to fit the LITENING (or SNIPER) to an F-15C you'd still have all the AG functions. It's doesn't mean they'd start making use of said modes.

The issue is much the same as the seemingly standard approach I see of people staring through the TGP (drinking straw) scanning for ground vehicles, rather than looking out of the cockpit. It's the same issue with AA, rule no1 is to get your head out of the cockpit and look outside, to cover your wingman and perform all the other duties you should be.

Oh and no element of my previous post was intended as rude, not sure why you took it that way, but it wasn't the intention.