Whats your tactics in dogfights against f18,27s,15s?

It may be 55 yea, I was just going from memory. I'm sure the gimbal limits are 20 degrees though.

That pic speaks a lot.

(Already knew it, probably from that thread I don't get tired to mention.)

 

Now... do you have one of those for the F-14A ?

Not yet, but it isn't that much different, the max STR of the A being around 0.8 deg/sec lower at the same altitude (10 kft), but I was planning on adding the following soon:

Still would great if someone could find a pic like the above, but with the F-14A instead for comparison.

edit:

Hummingbird, replied before seeing your answer.

You realize bfm is all dynamic right? There is no set ironclad rule. You read the situation react accordingly and capitalize on a mistake. you could also play The bait game trying to get your enemy to play your game. The problem is you're used to fly by wire aircraft in are used to ham fisting. I wish some of you played James f-15e stick games on that were so sensitive you literally had to fly it half stick or play with the stick games. That plane was heavy to maneuver.

Anyhow, saying to say 400 knots in F14 kind of ludicrous. I do recall most of them starting to fight at 450 knots but some energy and read what the situation is and go from there. Your sweet spot in your best turn right will always be around the 320 knot range. However, that also is dependent on your altitude any amount of weight you have. Lighter you are that never drops down lower. The reason why they said 275 was at 6.5g.. that's a light plane!.

I remember the days of Janes F18. No one fought as fast as you guys are doing over 400 knots tear it we primarily fought between 180 knots to 340 knots. Sure we started the merge off fast but we saw where are bandit was in read the situation and acted accordingly.

I do believe some of you rely on on the turn charts. I also think you should be reading the power excess charts as well that makes you understand where the power is at when you drop your nose or pick your nose up.

Another thing I learn from talking with some of the pilots was that most of them did not staying a sustained turned for more than 50 degrees.

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Still would great if someone could find a pic like the above' date=' but with the F-14A instead for comparison.[/quote']

 

There you go:

 

 

As for how to handle rate vs radius, here's an example of how a 2 circle fight between two aircraft with equal max rate but different radius might develop if the fight stays horizontal (birds eye view):

 

The above illustrates why the same rate, wider radius but higher energy fighter needs to go vertical in order to balance things out, so the above is an illustration of what to do in an F-14 (red in this case), and what NOT to do in an F-15 (blue) in a fight between the two. i.e. if you're flying the F-14 try to drag your opponent into the horizontal, and if you flying the F-15 try to drag him into the vertical.

Great, thank you! :thumbup:

And the 2nd pic we've already talked about it at other thread.

So, to confirm if my assumptions are right - back to the 1st pic (now with the F-14A):

- at those specifc circumstances;

- and because all the 4 jets are performing roughly the same turn rate;

One can assume that they are all pulling roughly the same Gs, right ?

This is all very confusing to me...

This is all very confusing to me...

You didn't do ACM with the turn performance charts open on your kneeboard?

Great, thank you! :thumbup:

And the 2nd pic we've already talked about it at other thread.

You're welcome.

So, to confirm if my assumptions are right - back to the 1st pic (now with the F-14A):

 

- at those specifc circumstances;

- and because all the 4 jets are performing roughly the same turn rate;

 

One can assume that they are all pulling roughly the same Gs, right ?

No, as TLTeo points out G-force is the combined result of speed vs rate or radius.

As you've noted on the plot the F-15, -16 & -14 are all pulling about the same rate, however the speed at which they do it is quite abit different, there being over 0.25 Mach in difference between the F-14 and F-15 & -16. This extra speed translates into higher G forces experienced by the pilots in the F-15 & -16 in order to pull the aircraft round in the same amount of time.

Same rate + higher speed = wider radius & higher G

Same rate + lower speed = tighter radius & lower G

Same radius + higher speed = higher rate & higher G

Same radius + lower speed = lower rate & lower G

Same G + higher speed = lower rate & wider radius

Same G + lower speed = higher rate & tighter radius

You didn't do ACM with the turn performance charts open on your kneeboard?

Like Cougar (who was smart enough to turn in his wings early and get the hell out of that stupid movie) I flew with a picture of my wife and kid stuck to the Radar Altimeter, even though I wasn't married. Evidently, from what I read here, I had it all wrong, and imagined most of what transpired...

Like Cougar (who was smart enough to turn in his wings early and get the hell out of that stupid movie) I flew with a picture of my wife and kid stuck to the Radar Altimeter, even though I wasn't married. Evidently, from what I read here, I had it all wrong, and imagined most of what transpired...

Well, there's no need for that either... sure several aspects of real life were portrayed in an Hollywood completely artificial and ficticious way.

But... if it wasn't for that movie, the F-14 Tomcat wouldn't have 1/10 of the fame and iconic status is has worldwide.

It's not about turn rate, it's about turn rate vs speed. The higher the speed, the higher the G needed to achieve a given turn rate. For example, this is for the F-5's manual:

 

...

 

To turn at 12 degrees/second at Mach ~0.55 you need to pull about 4g. To achieve the same turn rate at Mach 0.9 you need to pull over 6g.

So no, the Viper and Eagle are pulling harder. That's why those jets need to be rated at 9g and the Tomcat and Hornet for example aren't - they have enough g available at lower speeds that they don't need to fly that fast to achieve good turn rates.

You're welcome.

 

 

 

No, as TLTeo points out G-force is the combined result of speed vs rate or radius.

 

As you've noted on the plot the F-15, -16 & -14 are all pulling about the same rate, however the speed at which they do it is quite abit different, there being over 0.25 Mach in difference between the F-14 and F-15 & -16. This extra speed translates into higher G forces experienced by the pilots in the F-15 & -16 in order to pull the aircraft round in the same amount of time.

 

 

Same rate + higher speed = wider radius & higher G

Same rate + lower speed = tighter radius & lower G

 

Same radius + higher speed = higher rate & higher G

Same radius + lower speed = lower rate & lower G

 

Same G + higher speed = lower rate & wider radius

Same G + lower speed = higher rate & tighter radius

My bad, people - I should have looked with more attention.

I said "all the circumstances being equal", and they weren't - obviously the speed is different in all 4 jets.

So, if speed, altitude and G were equal for all of them - the Turn Rate would be equal, right ?

(I'm not talking much about Radius of Turn, as I don't have many doubts there.)

My bad, people - I should have looked with more attention.

 

I said "all the circumstances being equal", and they weren't - obviously the speed is different in all 4 jets.

 

So, if speed, altitude and G were equal for all of them - the Turn Rate would be equal, right ?

(I'm not talking much about Radius of Turn, as I don't have many doubts there.)

Yes, if the speed & G are the same for two aircraft then the rate AND radius will also be the same. Altitude doesn't matter in that context.