A little question about the Rudder Trimmer...

Hmm..in order to get as close as possible to the "real Thing" with your setup you should do it like PeterP said. Disable "Rudder Trim" enable "center after Trim" and just hold the Rudders in the correct Position..this would become clostest to the real Thing..at least "Motion wise":)

Rudder trim does not work with FFB enabled (even if I enable rudder trim). Even if it might be closer to reality, it is quite tiring flying with pedals always depressed somewhere...

Rudder trim does not work with FFB enabled (even if I enable rudder trim). Even if it might be closer to reality, it is quite tiring flying with pedals always depressed somewhere...

then you have to put out the Spring of the pedals...

the trim is nothing other than "there, where the steering force is on the lowest point, there is the "center""

Rudder trim does not work with FFB enabled (even if I enable rudder trim). Even if it might be closer to reality, it is quite tiring flying with pedals always depressed somewhere...

FFB is already a step away from reality, I imagine flying with hydraulics failure must be like using FFB.

Simulating reality would demand FFB with a trimable center-position and pedals without a springload.

FFB is already a step away from reality, I imagine flying with hydraulics failure must be like using FFB.

 

Simulating reality would demand FFB with a trimable center-position and pedals without a springload.

well there are some vids on Youtube about the trimable center position

And concerning the Pedals... thats why you have to build it yourself ;) I will post it today, when im at home :p

FFB is already a step away from reality, I imagine flying with hydraulics failure must be like using FFB.

 

Simulating reality would demand FFB with a trimable center-position and pedals without a springload.

Well, I agree with the pedals - but the FFB stick using the SIMFFB utility works very closely to the real thing - I was able to fly a full blown military sim Mi-8 with fully actuated controls and I will be going there again in December (with my newly acquired flying skills :)

then you have to put out the Spring of the pedals...

 

the trim is nothing other than "there, where the steering force is on the lowest point, there is the "center""

Thanks :) - I know that, however I would welcome to have at least the centering trimming (optional) method working as in Ka-50 when using FFB :)

Hmm..in order to get as close as possible to the "real Thing" with your setup you should do it like PeterP said. Disable "Rudder Trim" enable "center after Trim" and just hold the Rudders in the correct Position..this would become clostest to the real Thing..at least "Motion wise

Hello guys,

If I well understand your explanation for the Mi-8 and Huey I must:

Disable "Rudder Trimmer"

&

Enable "Center After Trim"

Here two screenshot of my setup now:

Is it good like that ?

Thanks again, Skull.

Hi Skull,

you "must" nothing. With this settings you simply come clostest to what you want (move the Controls like in a real Helicopter with a Standard Joystick). But I am not sure whether this is really comfortable to fly..it`s up to you..play around...:joystick:

you "must" nothing. With this settings you simply come clostest to what you want (move the Controls like in a real Helicopter with a Standard Joystick). But I am not sure whether this is really comfortable to fly

Thanks for your answer, in fact when I have wrote "I must" I want said that I'm prisonner of my passion and my race to the realism.

So I try to fly the more realist possible but it's not easy to have the good setup for fly as I want.. :bash:

If I've understand this function: "Rudder Trimmer" I must say that it's not easy to understand the function: "Central Position Trimmer Mode" even many tests...

If it's possible someone can help me to understand this option: "Central Position Trimmer Mode" ?

Thanks in advance for all, Skull.

Skulleader

Let me try :)

"Rudder Trimmer" means now you can activate a real feature from the helicopter... the rudder trimmer. However... yes... you can start laughing now :D...

-Rudder trimmer doesn't work now for FFB controllers (sticks, cause pedals don't even exists)... I think is a bug.

-Rudder trimmer is "simulated" in non FFB controllers (in Ka50 is simulated also for FFB controllers where it works). How is simulated? Well you need to understand clear what it means to "trim the rudder".

-It means that if you are tired of pushing the rudder one way you just want to trim it that way so it stays that way.

To do so you trim... in real helicopter the hydraulics are keeping your pedals in that place... for Saitek pedals like yours... or G940 like mine... there is no such thing. So... is simulated.

When you press trim and you were keeping the rudders... lets say... 45 degrees right the rudders in the heli will stay like this, the heli will turn accordingly to the right or keep direction accordingly to that rudder position.

BUT

Your rudder pedals from Saitek... don't stay there.

So... to simulate the real phenomenon ED and BST made the pedals of the helicopter from the game stay in trim position only after you return your Saitek pedals to center...

So: After using the rudder trim button and returning the pedals back to center the actual helicopter pedals will be trimmed to the position they were when you pressed and released the trim button!!!

From the moment you trimmed and the moment you put the pedals to center NO INPUT FROM THE PEDALS IS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT FOR THE GAME!! The game just waits for you to center the pedals.

----

Now the second mistery... In DCS BS 1 The trimer on rudder worked differently. You had 0.5 seconds "to comply" and return your pedals to center. In that time no input was taken into account from your controllers. After that 0.5 seconds the trimer entered abruptly in action and set the controls into trimmed position and then added whatever input you add in that time period of 0.5 seconds. This made many ka50 pilots to clash their rotors as they were lazy on the feet and they were dreaming about end of famine on Earth :D .

The:

"Central Position Trimmer Mode"

just activates that OLD method. Nothing more. Trimming on all axis enters in action no matter what you do or if you are ready or not after 0.5 seconds after trimmer button is RELEASED!

-----

So... to recapitulate.

You can have or not have rudder trimmed... is up to you. But ka50, UH1-H and Mi-8 HAVE RUDDER TRIM IN REAL LIFE.

The trimmer is simulated not realistically implemented because we don't have rudder pedals with Force Feedback. If you think... your Warthog stick has simulated trimming on the cyclic command also ;)

The trimmer can be applied after you center the controls or the trimmer can be applied after a time period... this is done via the second setting.

"Central Position Trimmer Mode"

 

just activates that OLD method. Nothing more. Trimming on all axis enters in action no matter what you do or if you are ready or not after 0.5 seconds after trimmer button is RELEASED!

 

Great Post from zaelu, and to make it even more clearer.."Central Position Trimmer Mode" prevents you from overcompensating, because after releasing the Trim Button, DCS ignors all input Signals from your Joystick until you re-center it:joystick:

Hello Zaelu and Lizzard,

So I give you my first impression after have read your post:

It's a great message and very informative, I've read many times your post Zealu and I think that I understand but it's not so easy...

I've well understand that we are limited by the software (DCS) and by our hardware (Stick and Rudder) and ED + BST have made all their possible for give us the more realist or the possiblity to use or not these two functions:

"Central Position Trimmer Mode"

"Rudder Trimmer"

In fact it's one question of choice or preference according the hardware that we have, no ?

You have write:

You can have or not have rudder trimmed... is up to you. But ka50, UH1-H and Mi-8 HAVE RUDDER TRIM IN REAL LIFE.

So if I want one realist simulation with my KA-50, Huey and Mi-8 I must enable the "Rudder Trimmer" because I like fly the more realist and of course for these three copters it's necessary.

Of course I know that my DCS + my hardware are not real and I could never have the same technology that the real copters.

And about the "Central Position Trimmer Mode" I'm not obliged to use this option, it's that ?

This function is not necessary, I've just need the "Rudder Trimmer" for my three copters as you have write:

You can have or not have rudder trimmed... is up to you. But ka50, UH1-H and Mi-8 HAVE RUDDER TRIM IN REAL LIFE.

Now, please can you tell me if I well understand your explanations or if I'm always

lost in the question of trim ?

I would like to thank you for your explanations and you patience, I hope that my English is not too poor...

Best regards, Skull.

You can try...

"Central Position Trimmer Mode" is just a "preference" settings between two ways:

1. Once you pressed the trim button and released the games waits for you to recenter the controls to assign trim you have chosen. It could take FOR EVER... if you are in a fight... you may be distracted and forget to recenter.

This means the game will wait for you until you DIE!

2. Once you release trim the game gives you 0.5 to clear you mind and decide. After 0.5 seconds it enforces the trim you have set no matter what you are thinking... or not. Bad part is that after you released the trim and then wander your controls... the game will add you "instant" input at the time of "trim activation" to the "trim setting" (tell me if this is still unclear to you... is rather simple... I wish I knew more french... it was my first foreign language in school but I had poor teachers and low interest at that time... or vice-versa... don't know) .

My advice is to just experiment wit "RCtrl+Enter" controls windows on screen and on ground and see what they do.

Please remember! You have a non Force feedback stick... which is NOT REALISTIC! You already have non realistic trimming on joystick... so your quest for realism for rudder.... is... :) funny.

So just accept the way rudder trim works as you did for Joystick.

Else?

Ask PeterP how to build his uber setup of 2 MS SW2 FFB HOTAS and then start building a FFB rudders.

(I tried a Logitech Momo racing wheel as rudder for testing and did not work.)

PS For me is Easy... I have G940 FFB HOTAS and solves my Stick problems... my stick doesn't wait for me to solve my mind to apply trim... is instant (not perfect but instant). Alll I have to do is to remember to center rudder pedals... not the stick. Also... once you tried FFB... ... :)

Skull..first of all you english is fine:)

If you want it "real" in Terms of Function yeah..you have to enable the Trimmers, if you want it as real as it can be "Control-movement-wise" without a FFB Joystick (with DCS on the PC) you should disable it...so you have 2 Sides of a Coin.."real" Function of the Trimming System or kind of "real" Movement of your Controls. There is no "that is more realistic"..it depends on you..and what you like better.

And the "Central Position Trimmer Mode" is just a little Tool, that kind of simulates the real behaviour of the controls in a real Chopper..it means like in a real Chopper you can release the Trimmer button and let the Stick rest in that Position..no Problems with overcompensation (But Caution: you may loose Control of the Helicopter, because as said before DCS ignores your Inputs..until you re-center!)

And Skull...it is very hard to get the real deal with DCS...it is a Computer Game and has its limitations, at least at the controls...the best advice I can give you is..try all the settings an possibilities..and find out what feels best for you:thumbup:

And for the generall sense of the Trimmers..it seems like many People are lost with that..but it is realy easy to understand..

Just take your Huey and lift-off...then set it up for a forward flight with 80kts. In order to keep that speed and the height you will see, that you always have to push your cyclic forward a little bit. There the Trimmers jump in. The sense of the Trimmers is just to do that work for the Pilot, and center or "fix" your controls in that Position. So If you do your forward flight with 80 kts...then press/release the Trimmer button, you can take your Hands from the controls, and the Chopper will keep the speed and height (as long as you don`t touch the Collective)..because the Trimmer does your work..it is as simple as that.

Good discussion guys, zaelu for the detailed explanation, and Lizzard for the condensed version.

After a period of trial and error some time ago with options checked and un-checked in all the helo models, I found what seemed to work best for me. But I couldn't figure out how to best explain it to other users. Good job you guys !

Hi guys. Skull... dont let this little issue stop you from enjoying the sim. What ever you choose is real. I also love to go as real as it is, but we are on a PC :P

For example: I trimm the huey on the ground before hover check but just the ciclic, while in a hover i just keep pressed the rudder to the left and thats all. I bet some real life pilot dont use it and some other use rudder trimm. It is just a preference :)