backstab Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) I just fixed an issue that I am confident others will run into eventually with the Virpil throttle. This issue arose about a week ago. I noticed that on the left throttle (because I fly mostly with the throttles separated) that the once smooth travel was now a scratchy metal on metal feeling. It was providing friction that I didnt want and I knew something was up. I disassembled the entire throttle to discover what the issue was. The adjustable detents are made from two ball bearings running over a slit in a piece of steel. when the ball sits in the slit this is the resistance you feel. The positions of those bearings are adjustable by the set screws on the bottom of the throttle. A good idea actually. As seen in the picture the bearings have actually cut grooves into the approach for the slit. This is unusual as ball bearings are meant to roll, not slide. The balls are back spring mounted so they always are forced against the steel. The grooves on one side (left throttle) got so bad that it was scraping not rolling. I suspect that the ball bearing quality or functionality is suspect. Its not rolling and the other 3 look like eventually they will end up scratchy and bad. The issue I take is that the ball and the plate of steel (picture) was shipped absolutely devoid of oil or grease. Zero lubrication. This was a mistake. It was a mistake to think it didnt need lubrication or it was a mistake to have forgotten it. Either way I ended up doing some extra work. The solution for you guys is to check it which can only be done with a tear down. It wasn't difficult to disassemble or assemble the Virpil throttle. Take pictures along the way of the parts. Because mine was so worn in, lube didnt help. I flipped the plate over for a fresh start and lubed that side. I suspect this will eventually break down again because of a non rolling bearing. I hope I'm wrong. Edited January 8, 2019 by backstab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron886 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Man, I hate to see that. Can you describe a little the order in which you disassemble the throttle axis block? I see some grease in there, but I'd love to replace it with Nyogel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backstab Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 Oh I took the grips off, then the top plate and that exposes the steel plate on top, the one I took the picture of. What you are showing is the bottom and that's not the area in question. You need to remove the plastic buttoned grips and then the components will lift off exposing the area. The plate is held on with 2 screws and lock washers. Its symmetrical so it doesn't matter which way you out it on. Its not hard to take grips off because they just have one wire that needs to be unplugged and therefore there is one slot only on re assembly. No confusion. Good design edit. That part in your picture I never disassembled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HC_Official Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 the ball bearings were they damaged looking (worn etc) ? No more pre-orders Click here for tutorials for using Virpil Hardware and Software Click here for Virpil Flight equipment dimensions and pictures. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyph3r Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Hi backstab! I'm sorry to hear that you've had some issues with your throttle - can you get in touch with our support team please so we can investigate this further for you? ► Website: www.virpil.com // ► Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VirPilControls // ► Twitter: https://twitter.com/VirPilControls For support please email support@virpil.com to open a ticket! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdee Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) Could that it be that when the ball approaches the slit, there is more pressure on the ball and it prevents it from rolling? Now, after reading what you wrote, I can potentially explain why I feel a slight increase in resistance near the detent - it may be the ball gradually getting closer to the slit (the distance between center of the bearing and the ball to the plate would shorten) and compressing the spring. I hope I am guessing wrong, as this would be slightly prone to failures like yours. Just guessing here, I am bit hesitant to disassemble mine as nothing is wrong with it. I hope the support sorts this out for you, please let us know the outcome. btw: I'd definitely not put any Nyogel (damping) in there. Edited January 11, 2019 by mdee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawgie79 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) Could that it be that when the ball approaches the slit, there is more pressure on the ball and it prevents it from rolling? Now, after reading what you wrote, I can potentially explain why I feel a slight increase in resistance near the detent - it may be the ball gradually getting closer to the slit (the distance between center of the bearing an the ball would shorten) and compressing the spring. I hope I am guessing wrong, as this would be slightly prone to failures like yours. Just guessing here, I am bit hesitant to disassemble mine as nothing is wrong with it. I hope the support sorts this out for you, please let us know the outcome. btw: I'd definitely not put any Nyogel (damping) in there. +1. Recently noticed the same thing, a little more resistance near the detents. I'm in the same boat as you, don't want to open it up as nothing is wrong with it (yet?). Edited January 11, 2019 by dawgie79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomasew Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) Hi, Looks like mine is starting to groove as well. .. and I really haven't used my throttle that much .. +- 3 hours .. :( Virpil need to make some suggestions, on how to alleviate further 'grooving' of that plate. :book: .. perhaps they need to make that 'plate' out of some other material .. e.g. teflon or nylon. What I've done in the interim, .. is give the 'plate' a couple of coats of dry PTFE lubricant. (to reduce friction) .. and, when I put the plate back, I just 'nipped' the 2 screws that hold it in, not totally (over)tightened them. (to reduce pressure on the ball bearings). Throttle feels smooth(er), .. and Indent seems fine .. :) Cheers Tom Edited January 11, 2019 by Thomasew He Who Will Not Risk Cannot Win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasserfall Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 +1 more resistance near the detent Intel Core i5-9600K, Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO, 16GB Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro, Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2080 WINDFORCE 8G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbot Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 After seeing your pictures with the worn metal plates, I am glad that I have not ordered the throttle yet. Therefore, I will certainly wait until the layout has been improved by the manufacturer. :noexpression: A-10A, A-10C, A-10C II, AV-8B, F-5E, F-16C, F/A-18C, F-86F, Yak-52, Nevada, Persian Gulf, Syria, Supercarrier, Combined Arms, FW 190 A-8, FW 190 D-9, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, Normandy + WWII Assets Pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98abaile Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 A quick fix would be to just flip the plate upside down, although that would only be a temporary solution. The leading edge of the groove could be very slightly radiused to help alleviate the problems of the ball bearing meeting a hard edge and sudden obstruction, although ideally the detent would be a milled trough (and the ball bearing in constant rolling contact) rather than a void. The plate also looks too close to the detent ring. My reasoning for this is that the length of the worn groove is long, indicating that the ball bearing stays in contact for a long time indicating a long length of travel against its spring. The ball bearing only really needs to come into contact with the plate near the detent. Lastly, and crucially, the plate should be hardened. All this aside though, a much better design would have been to have the ball bearings or roller pins where the plate is (or elsewhere around the axis) and instead have the detent grooves on the adjustable bushings instead (either hardened steel or bronze). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdee Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Unless the plate is made of cheese or the ball made of cutting diamond, I doubt these grooves would appear there after 3 hours of usage. They might be pre-cut (perhaps to alleviate pressure change), guessing by pictures in not very precise manner. I'll stop speculating, but it does bother me. @Cyph3r, some light on this would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aviators Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 After seeing your pictures with the worn metal plates, I am glad that I have not ordered the throttle yet. Therefore, I will certainly wait until the layout has been improved by the manufacturer. :noexpression: +1 L'importante non è stabilire se uno ha paura o meno, è saper convivere con la propria paura e non farsi condizionare dalla stessa. Ecco, il coraggio è questo, altrimenti non è più coraggio ma incoscienza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backstab Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Im sure this is going to turn into a gigantic problem for Virpil. I hope they have an engineer looking into a solution. Its not rocket science but some other materials or some different mechanism is needed. It looks like a good idea but whomever authorized this didnt think it through. How many times will we roll that ball past those detents. Click click click 20,000 times in its life and someone didnt understand the wear and tear factor. Im still waiting on my ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdee Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Backstab, would you mind explaining how did you get to this plate? I can check mine, but your previous explanation is too vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawgie79 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Im sure this is going to turn into a gigantic problem for Virpil. I hope they have an engineer looking into a solution. Its not rocket science but some other materials or some different mechanism is needed. It looks like a good idea but whomever authorized this didnt think it through. How many times will we roll that ball past those detents. Click click click 20,000 times in its life and someone didnt understand the wear and tear factor. Im still waiting on my ticket. Hope so too, and that Cyph3r will respond as soon as they've investigated the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backstab Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 The plate is located between the throttles. It is just under the top plate with all the switches on it. To access it you need to remove the plastic grips that are screwed on top of each of the power arms. Once those are off then undo the screws on the top plate and the plastic incremented dust cover that sits on top of the top plate. This dust cover will come up and off. Then remove the two plastic arced dust covers. All this stuff needs to come up and off so you can lift the large metal top plate off. As soon as you do this you will see it. You have the option to remove both halves of the metal top plate with all the switches on it but if I recall you just need to remove the plate over the throttle levers. I cant think if you need to remove any screws from the bottom of the throttle.. Just do it. Take photos and mark the wires with a marker. Its not calculating your shadow on the moon. Its basically a must do IMO so get on it. Total time is about 30 minutes to take apart and re assemble. I wish I took better pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmacky Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 If anyone else does this, please take pics of each step! I agree, that it seems impossible those grooves were cut in 3 hours? Surely, that would have been quickly noticed in beta testing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chief Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Im sure this is going to turn into a gigantic problem for Virpil. I hope they have an engineer looking into a solution. Its not rocket science but some other materials or some different mechanism is needed. It looks like a good idea but whomever authorized this didnt think it through. How many times will we roll that ball past those detents. Click click click 20,000 times in its life and someone didnt understand the wear and tear factor. Im still waiting on my ticket. Usually this kinda stuff is caught with good QA and a lot of wear testing. Let's hope it's an isolated situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbot Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 ... I agree, that it seems impossible those grooves were cut in 3 hours? Surely, that would have been quickly noticed in beta testing? Why shouldn't those grooves be cut in 3 hours? Just land on a carrier a few times and have a look at how often you'll be moving the throttles during that time. The bearing is made of hardened material and the plate probably not. Those grooves will be inside the plate pretty soon if pressure is high enough. And you're right - they should have noticed that during beta testing... :huh: A-10A, A-10C, A-10C II, AV-8B, F-5E, F-16C, F/A-18C, F-86F, Yak-52, Nevada, Persian Gulf, Syria, Supercarrier, Combined Arms, FW 190 A-8, FW 190 D-9, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, Normandy + WWII Assets Pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javelina1 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Why shouldn't those grooves be cut in 3 hours? Just land on a carrier a few times and have a look at how often you'll be moving the throttles during that time. The bearing is made of hardened material and the plate probably not. Those grooves will be inside the plate pretty soon if pressure is high enough. And you're right - they should have noticed that during beta testing... :huh: Or even AAR. Nothing but a flurry of activity with the throttle. Hope this gets worked out for you folks quickly. MSI MAG Z790 Carbon, i9-13900k, NH-D15 cooler, 64 GB CL40 6000mhz RAM, MSI RTX4090, Yamaha 5.1 A/V Receiver, 4x 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe, 1x 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD, Win 11 Pro, TM Warthog, Virpil WarBRD, MFG Crosswinds, 43" Samsung 4K TV, 21.5 Acer VT touchscreen, TrackIR, Varjo Aero, Wheel Stand Pro Super Warthog, Phanteks Enthoo Pro2 Full Tower Case, Seasonic GX-1200 ATX3 PSU, PointCTRL, Buttkicker 2, K-51 Helicopter Collective Control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdee Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 (edited) I have 96 hours on this throttle with 69 AARs and god knows how many carrier landings, formation flying etc, (according to DCS log) since I bought it (wiped the log the day I plugged it). No signs of any friction, except slightly higher resistance around detents, was there since new. Can't be bothered to open it, I poked around this morning and it's definitely not user serviceable unlike stick base. If it ever breaks, I am just going to send it back. Edited January 12, 2019 by mdee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aviators Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 I have 96 hours on this throttle with 69 AARs and god knows how many carrier landings, formation flying etc, (according to DCS log) since I bought it (wiped the log the day I plugged it). No signs of any friction, except slightly higher resistance around detents, was there since new. Can't be bothered to open it, I poked around this morning and it's definitely not user serviceable unlike stick base. If it ever breaks, I am just going to send it back. Is not the throttle axis too short compared to the warthog axis? L'importante non è stabilire se uno ha paura o meno, è saper convivere con la propria paura e non farsi condizionare dalla stessa. Ecco, il coraggio è questo, altrimenti non è più coraggio ma incoscienza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdee Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Is not the throttle axis too short compared to the warthog axis? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangSally Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 I have 96 hours on this throttle with 69 AARs and god knows how many carrier landings, formation flying etc, (according to DCS log) since I bought it (wiped the log the day I plugged it). No signs of any friction, except slightly higher resistance around detents, was there since new. Can't be bothered to open it, I poked around this morning and it's definitely not user serviceable unlike stick base. If it ever breaks, I am just going to send it back. ^^ What he said! Ryzen 9 7950X3D - MSI MAG X670E TomaHawk MB, ASUS ROG Ryujin III 360 AIO 64gig Corsair DDR5@6000, Gigabyte GeForce RTX 4090 AORUS Winwing Super Taurus, Orion2, TO / Combat panels, Collective with Topgun MIP Winwing Skywalker pedals, NLR Boeing Mil Edition Simpit, Trackir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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