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Is the Spit quite right?


stratman59

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He was a tad disrespectful, true that. But still, plenty of folks here who can fly the bird flawlessly, so there's that too... well not that I'm one of them, though :music_whistling:

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I might point to jcomm's post, just as an example, clearly, it isn't just me who thinks things aren't quite as they should be if mkiii has delved into the .lua settings trying to find an answer to frankly ridiculous bounce characteristic on even the most level and gentle touchdowns. Just watch some real Spitfires landing on Youtube, a small bounce yes, a 20ft high bounce at 60-70mph, coming in perfectly level and at the right attitude, no!

 

1:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_3YuwerLCQ

 

What do all Sim enthusiasts want? For me, the most accurate and realistic simulation the developers can give us, I'm sure ED will get it just right in time and I expect user comments as to how things are with users are fairly useful. It'll be very interesting to see what the figures in the FMOptions.lua file look like once ED deem the Spitfire Finished?

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This thread prompted me to give the Spitfire another go. Like all the other threads about landing it, they all seem to fall back on the takeoff rather than the landing of it.

stratman, you are going through exactly what I've been going through...Until a few moments ago. For the first time in only God knows how many borked landings, I did two nigh on perfect landings on the trot.(I quit while I was ahead)

How did that come about? All on account of what one man said. Namely Strong05 and I quote:

"On landing be sure to pull all the way back on the stick on touchdown, and use differential wheel braking. Don't rely on rudder authority alone."
Hallelujah! :thumbup:
Edited by Ron Attwood
Give that man a knighthood
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Ron, I can now do pretty much perfect landings most of the time, if I could save tracks I would put some on Youtube. I do still have complete cockups on a regular basis though. This afternoon I managed 5 nice landings on the trot before touching a wing down on the sixth. I don't know if this is a VR thing and the heightened perspective, a bonus I would have thought, but for me pulling back hard on the stick just made me take off again and then come down with an almighty bounce, even at 60 - 70 mph. For me, the key was absolutely getting the speed perfect with the correct attitude, any faster than 60-70 and the bounce was ridiculous. I tried using the brakes on my pedals but really struggled, (cheap TM T flight pedals don't help) I set brakes to a button on the throttle and used quick dabs on it, seemed to work for me.

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Pulling HARD back on the stick might be a bit of an overstatement. You know the point at which, on a 'normal' aircraft you would more or less let it roll out. It's at that point, or just before, that I pull the stick back firmly but gently.

In any event, it seems we're getting there. :)

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The 109 reputation as difficult at take-off comes from the earlier models (very early models) that lacked tailwheel locking. And tbh the free tailwheel is the only thing on the spit that make it look difficult. It took me the same amount of time "mastering" take-off & landing on both birds, tbh.

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

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Probably right Whisper, had I started on the 109 no doubt the Spitfire would have come a little easier. Not to worry, enjoying both and now I'm going to move on the the Dora and the Mustang.

Just can't wait for when we can actually do more than just take off and land as at the moment flying against AI is a pretty horrid experience.

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I think it has already been said many times, but the Spitfire was probably the harder plane to land/take-off. The reason for all the reports of 109 pilots dying on landing is due to the lack of training.

 

To take off in the Spitfire:

1. elevator down a few degrees

2. ailerons to the right a touch

3. slowly raise your throttle (but at the same time don't be afraid to give it some juice)

4. counter the torque with your rudders (you shouldn't really rudder to the left. if you counter too far to the right just let the torque take you back to the left)

5. once the tail gets off the ground, center the stick

6. pull up very very lightly

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I concur with andremsmv, the only thing I would add is to use the bank indicator on the Blind-Flying Panel to judge your rudder inputs. Taking off, once I am lined up on the runway I look down to my instrument panel and pretty much keep focused on instruments until I lift off. 1st for a smooth increase in throttle to +8 boost, while simultaneously applying full right rudder, and then eyes on the bank indicator needle to keep her straight. If you dance on the rudders pedals to keep the needle as central as you can, the aircraft course will also keep straight. I do glance up regularly to keep bearings etc.

With landing again others have talked of approach speeds and lining her up correctly, so again all I shall add to this advice is to watch the bank indicator needle once your wheels are down to keep her straight and avoid the wing tip scrapes. Again, if the runway is clear and your approach was in a straight line before touchdown you can afford to keep your head down watching the indicator while you dance on the rudders to keep the needle central. No need for brakes until you sense that she has slowed enough. By which time you are probably just going to taxioff the runway.

 

I fly in VR using this method so can't comment how it would pan out in 2D.

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I'm not going to offer advice, solutions, or statistics from manuals or books. What I am going to offer is validation.

Yes! The Spitfire is by far the hardest plane to land in DCS. Takeoff is a draw between it and the German planes. But landing is certainly a pain in the a$$ in this plane.

Having no practical experience flying any of these planes, I cannot speak to the accuracy of this issue. Speaking from everything I have read about it and from everything I have seen on these forums, it is my opinion that the Spitfire does have something that's not correct about it.

But then again....every DCS plane has it's little problems here and there. Will ED ever see fit to change or correct any of them? That's something that is never clear until it happens. Some of the issues that I have had with the modules have been addressed or fixed at some point and others not.

It's really just a matter of whether ED and the devs. agree with those who point these things out. Sometimes they do and it gets fixed. Sometimes they don't and we learn to deal with them. Sometimes they do and it never gets fixed. And yet others, sometimes they fix things that I never knew were wrong.

Bottom line is that this is a sim. It's very much about opinion as to how real or accurate everything is.

But I feel your frustration with the Spitfire. I love the plane but don't like flying it due to the landing issue.

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I'm not going to offer advice, solutions, or statistics from manuals or books. What I am going to offer is validation.

Yes! The Spitfire is by far the hardest plane to land in DCS. Takeoff is a draw between it and the German planes. But landing is certainly a pain in the a$$ in this plane.

Having no practical experience flying any of these planes, I cannot speak to the accuracy of this issue. Speaking from everything I have read about it and from everything I have seen on these forums, it is my opinion that the Spitfire does have something that's not correct about it.

But then again....every DCS plane has it's little problems here and there. Will ED ever see fit to change or correct any of them? That's something that is never clear until it happens. Some of the issues that I have had with the modules have been addressed or fixed at some point and others not.

It's really just a matter of whether ED and the devs. agree with those who point these things out. Sometimes they do and it gets fixed. Sometimes they don't and we learn to deal with them. Sometimes they do and it never gets fixed. And yet others, sometimes they fix things that I never knew were wrong.

Bottom line is that this is a sim. It's very much about opinion as to how real or accurate everything is.

But I feel your frustration with the Spitfire. I love the plane but don't like flying it due to the landing issue.

 

True :thumbup:

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There is no landing issue with the Spit. While difficult its very predicatable when you stay within proper speed limits and pitch angle. The hardest part is keeping her strait with the pedal dance as you slow to taxi speed but the landing itself is not that bad. If anyone experiences excessive bounce then there is something the pilot is doing wrong.

"It's amazing, even at the Formula 1 level how many drivers still think the brakes are for slowing the car down."

 

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Interesting question. Landing the Spit in DCS compared to other so called "sims" is a nightmare. But this is why DCS is a sim, and I'm glad it's the way it is. And actually, as long as you land it by the book it's not that difficult at all. Same for the takeoff: apply +2 boost and no more, trim her 1 notch nose down, dance on the rudder, keep the 2 point pith angle with the stick, and you'll be fine.

 

What is puzzling me is that all pilot accounts - including modern day test pilot accounts who flew both types - state that the 109 was a nightmare to take off, and the Spit was a kiddie's toy. In DCS I don't see this night and day difference. I'd say the 109 is slightly more difficult to take off, but only marginally.

 

Perhaps it's related to the tailwheel being a lot more bouncy than on the other planes? I raised this in another thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=192937

 

But it was dissmissed by SiTh chalking it up to poor handling. Nevertheless, the Spit's tailwheel IS a lot more bouncy than all the other planes, and I have a feeling that it's a contributing factor to what the OP experiences.

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  • ED Team
There is no landing issue with the Spit. While difficult its very predicatable when you stay within proper speed limits and pitch angle. The hardest part is keeping her strait with the pedal dance as you slow to taxi speed but the landing itself is not that bad. If anyone experiences excessive bounce then there is something the pilot is doing wrong.

 

Ther is a very simple way to solve this problem. As you said, there is no problem to touch down the plane as you are in right speed, altitude and attitude conditions. Moreover, the landing is the SIMPLIEST for the Spit - just place it on the right altitude and hold threee point attitude - it will land by itself.

The second part is to hold it straight during the run... yes, rudder dance is compulsory (and the best explanation is in Instructor's text in three parts). The problem is that the more speed bleeds the more the plane gets unstable directionally, and the less power yopu have in the rudder to control it.

 

So the RIGHT way is to add gradually braking to steering keeping or even building up the steering power.

 

As the real Spit is landing the "PSSS" of air valve is the main sounds you hear in the cockpit...

 

 

2 Stratman59

 

It is not correct to compare 109 with locked tailwheel and the Spit. Try to unlock 109's one.

By the way, regardless of manuals, some pilots used to fly with unlocked wheel. For example, Erich Brunotte did this trick. For no purpose, just to feel the plane better and to show his skill.

Preparing 109 to be released I tried to perform this kind of TO - "What Erich did, I must do" - and it was not so hard, especially using his way of manual prop controlling. 11-30 for the prop (as far as I remember) to have light prop, 1.3 ata in few seconds to get enough steering power and here we go.

Rudder dance, wheelbrake assistance if necessary, neutral stick or just slightly forward - and it's ok.

The same way is good for the Spit, too.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Pulling HARD back on the stick might be a bit of an overstatement. You know the point at which, on a 'normal' aircraft you would more or less let it roll out. It's at that point, or just before, that I pull the stick back firmly but gently.

In any event, it seems we're getting there. :)

 

Glad I was able to help! You are absolutely correct on the back pressure. You gradually feed it in on landing. For my perfect landing I gradually apply pressure to the stick until I'm on the ground then pull it the rest of the way back. If done correctly you won't bounce.

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Ther is a very simple way to solve this problem. As you said, there is no problem to touch down the plane as you are in right speed, altitude and attitude conditions. Moreover, the landing is the SIMPLIEST for the Spit - just place it on the right altitude and hold threee point attitude - it will land by itself.

The second part is to hold it straight during the run... yes, rudder dance is compulsory (and the best explanation is in Instructor's text in three parts). The problem is that the more speed bleeds the more the plane gets unstable directionally, and the less power yopu have in the rudder to control it.

 

So the RIGHT way is to add gradually braking to steering keeping or even building up the steering power.

 

As the real Spit is landing the "PSSS" of air valve is the main sounds you hear in the cockpit...

 

 

The same way is good for the Spit, too.

 

Oh I agree. That's how I do it. It is the hardest part of the landing, but I do not find it difficult to replicate. Just talk to her softly and she settles down nicely. I also agree that a three point landing where she comes down herself is the best way. This ties into the proper approach speed and pitch angle I mentioned. The Spit requires a pilot's constant attention, but it's a joy to fly.

"It's amazing, even at the Formula 1 level how many drivers still think the brakes are for slowing the car down."

 

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