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AH-64 Apache


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You might just see the Apache down the line at some point? Seeing how ED / TFC has a leg in the door at boeing. I really hope to see it one day...

 

 

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Edited by David OC

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I would love to see and DCS Apache. I actually discovered ED and DCS while looking for a replacement for the now ancient Jane's Long Bow.

 

I know that ED was at one time planning an AH-64, and suddenly they stated that they canceled the project and that they could not say why.

 

Some then pointed out that TBS (The Battle Simulator - a partner company of ED - I believe ED creates the flight simulation SW for BTS, which is more-or-less DCS) suddenly listed the Apache as a future product. Currently on their website you can find, ".. aircraft are in development .. AH-64".

 

I assume ED signed an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) with Boeing to gain a contract with them and the military to develop an AH-64 simulation for BTS, with the NDA requiring that ED not even say why they were canceling their plans to create an AH-64 module for DCS.

 

The AH-64 from its earliest version has been in service with the US Army since 1986. That's 32 years(!!). How much of the original AH-64A is still in place (and thus classified) in the AH-64D/E I have no idea. Maybe too much to allow for anyone to create a module for DCS; maybe not.

 

If ED does have an NDA with Boeing and/or the US government, they probably will never be allowed to produce a commercial AH-64 module of any variant, simply as part of the NDA.

 

However, if enough information is declassified on, for example the AH-64A (an aircraft which is not in service anywhere in the world as far as I know) a partner developer with DCS rotary-wing aircraft experience *cough*cough*Polychop(1)*cough*VEAO(2)*cough* might be able to pull it off. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

 

(1) Polychop has produced the acclaimed Gazelle, and could possible produce a good Apache as well.

 

(2) Although VEAO hasn't yet produced any helicopters, their products have often been praised, and they are planning at least the some AI helos for their South Atlantic Theatre aircraft and equipment project, plus there is some gossip about some other heavy helos they might make (CH-47, CH-53 Sea Stallion). Maybe one or more will be flyable modules... maybe, which could put VEAO in the position--from the standpoint of experience--to make an Apache.

 

(3) Belsimteck would have been my choice for making an Apache. If anyone could have done it, they could have done it, and done it well. Unfortunately they are apparently now a part of ED, which would mean, they are also now regulated by any NDA ED might have signed.

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I have coding and modelling skills... i also happen to be a visual engineer (simulation) professionally. I personally would volunteer my time and skills if it meant bringing my beloved AH-64 to the world of DCS!

 

I would have said the same about the F-14, but as we know.. that's not far off! :-D

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However, if enough information is declassified on, for example the AH-64A

 

A fair haul of Pilot operating procedures for flight ops can be found easily. It's details on the weapon systems that may be difficult to come by.

 

Still. A decent flight experience could be developed with the right people, and the right motivation.

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You need things like wind-tunnel tests. The dev would need a complete aerodynamics profile, plus all (or at least suffisant) avionics and weapons systems info, all on a much higher level than a users manual will provide.

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Probably not due to classified systems.

 

I find that VERY hard to believe, since that has been out for how long?? If Jane's can produce AH-64D, what, 20 years ago, I seriously doubt there's classified stuff on this. Unless it's hidden away with the classified material at Roswell....now let's get this chopper on the board...and not just the regular Apache, but the Longbow too...classified, bs

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You have got to be mixing up VEAO and Razbam, VEAO announced that they wont bed developing anything more for DCS, cancelled all their planned projects.

 

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*GAHHH* yes, I meant RAZBAM :doh: sorry. Razbam has a a bunch of stuff on the way. We'll see if they put a flyable chopper among them.

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They've specifically said it's a question of when and not if so...

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You need things like wind-tunnel tests. The dev would need a complete aerodynamics profile, plus all (or at least suffisant) avionics and weapons systems info, all on a much higher level than a users manual will provide.

 

the operational procedures provide more detail than you might think, but i never said it would include everything.

 

Wind tunnel test?? I'm not sure where you're coming from there. A wind tunnel is not mandatory when developing a simulated aerodynamic profile. Though i suppose you could use one if you chose to.

 

Developing simulated aerodynamic characteristics is more observational than empirical, and is largely dependent on the real-time engine driving the sim. You can base line easily, or using generic know quantities, and then tune from there using a plethora of data points and observational feedback.

 

Development of an alpha AH-64 is completely achievable with information available in the public domain.. it simply requires people with motivation, and time.

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Without the correct and as much data as possible it would take the engineers a longggg time to guess it, at the level they build these FM's at today.

 

ED breaks every element down and applies physics equations to each part of the aircraft, this also helps with a more realistic damage model. ED always go's with the engineering specs first then check with pilots for feedback.

 

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Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

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meh ... it's like asking for Monica Bellucci and getting Tilda Swinton :cry:

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The A-10C was a special situation. I recall reading that Fairchild Republic actually wanted ED to put the A-10C into DCS as a PFM/AAS module, for whatever reason. Maybe for advertising.

 

DCS is not producing the latest model F/A-18's. We have the F/A-18C which was officially retired from combat service in April of this year. The F/A-18E & F, which are currently in service, are actually completely different aircraft.

 

If Boeing is unwilling to license the AH-64A for simulation, I suspect it would either be because of still classified information, which still applies to the AH-64D and later, or they are just greedy and want too much for licensing, which makes it prohibitively expensive for a sim-developer.

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The A-10C was a special situation. I recall reading that Fairchild Republic actually wanted ED to put the A-10C into DCS as a PFM/AAS module, for whatever reason. Maybe for advertising.

 

 

Fairchild Dornier (the successor of Fairchild Republic) went bankrupt many years before DCS existed, so that sounds unlikely.

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A-10C came out because US Army wanted a desktop simulator for transfer pilots from A-10A to A-10C and it is cheaper and easier job considering if you have hundreds of old pilots who would need to get their flight status kept and updated to new model.

 

And ED got the A-10C for consumers same time with a few classified systems removed that only real pilots would notice missing. So what you get with A-10C is like 85-90% of the real thing via software wise.

 

The AH-64 could come out as AH-64A but considering still that how much there are about the flight computers and targeting systems and how important it is in current active duty, it is very unlikely we see it in near future even if the military gets its trainer from ED. AH-64D now being old one and AH-64E the latest one, there could be a change but still unlikely.

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Fairchild Dornier (the successor of Fairchild Republic) went bankrupt many years before DCS existed, so that sounds unlikely.

 

Yes, they were purchased by some consortium--I don't recall which. Going bankrupt does not automatically mean the company ceases to exist.

 

Anyway, the discussion where I read this was about, how is it that ED has a modern a/c in the A-10, but cannot make any others; maybe it was with regards to the Apache, but I really don't recall that. I vaguely recall also that the A-10 does not have all the weapons systems 100% modeled to reality, because some things were still classified, so they are a best-effort by ED to make them as real as possible. I don't recall if the manufacturer played any role in that.

 

The point is, this is why we have on single modern a/c, but will likely not get another.

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FA-18C was not retired at all. There are many USMC squadrons which are still flying Hornet. And they will use Hornet to 2030 (then it will be replaced by F-35). I think that there are 2-3 USN squadrons still flying Hornet also.

And there are a lot of countries, still using FA-18C - Finland, Spain, Canada, Switzerland, Kuwait...

 

The F/A-18C was retired from combat service by the US Navy in April 2018 according to the Wikipedia article.

 

I have to make one correction though. I believe it was VEAO planning to do the Apache. I still have the link to the post stating that is is being dropped: LINK, but the thread is not there anymore--at least not at the same URL. Whether that forum section was deleted or moved and the thread numbers changed, I don't know.

 

Whether anyone could get a license agreement from Boeing and put the Apache into DCS I can only guess, and whether such a license agreement with Boeing would be financially feasible would be an even wilder speculation on my part--the company selling the module would have to earn enough on selling the module to not only pay for the license agreement, but also turn a profit for their thousands of hours of payed development time and overhead.

 

I will welcome the Apache with open arms if it is ever built, but I'm getting old, and I don't hear the Army getting ready to replace the Apache at any time in the near future, which might declassify Apache systems and ease access to necessary information.

 

I guess my gravestone will have to read:

 

"whoop-whoop-whoop-whoop" sound approaches in slow-motion

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  • ED Team

Personally, my opinion is that the "classified systems" theory doesn't hold as much water as it did a few years ago. Even if ED absolutely intended at one time to only feature aircraft they could model 100% accurately through and through, the evidence suggests the 100% accuracy goal has started to be bent a little.

 

I am no A-10 or F/A-18 pilot, but I would imagine that the defensive systems and other related "black boxes" on those aircraft are the majority chunk of the "sensitive areas" of those modules. If I were a flight sim developer, I think the potential profits of doing these well known modern aircraft would outweigh the "100% accuracy" goal; and I would be satisfied with 80-90% accuracy with the remaining being a best guess to solidify the gameplay for the player. It seems like a smart business decision to me, but this is of course personal speculation without any facts or citations to back it up.

 

Speaking of smart business decisions; this leads to my second point of speculation. If I were to make a DCS World-type flight sim game, I would try to space out the modules of "highest demand" over the course of many years, along with other modules sprinkled in between. I wouldn't crank all of these "most wanted" modules out right off the bat; I would release them over time to ensure a renewable revenue stream.

 

Or in the end, it could all come down to licensing and intellectual property legalities, as has been discussed many times. But we'll probably never know.

 

I really do think that some modules will never get to high-fidelity due to restrictions on the technology by the home country, namely the Russian Mi-28 and "Flanker" family. I would love to have the front-line stuff in high-fidelity like the Su-33, 34, 35 and the Mi-28 to go along with my AH-64, F-16, and F-15E...but that is the curse of DCS: there's always another aircraft out there we dream of getting the keys to. :joystick:

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