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DCS: Me 262 Discussion (Development on hold currently)


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It's alive but first the P-47 is on the Plan, ED is working the Backer List downwards.

Fw-190, Bf-109; Spit, P-47 and then the last is Me-262 before next Year you should not expect news on this Front.

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

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It's alive but first the P-47 is on the Plan, ED is working the Backer List downwards.

Fw-190, Bf-109; Spit, P-47 and then the last is Me-262 before next Year you should not expect news on this Front.

 

That may not be the case. ED have said P-47 was on partial hold last year while they were obtaining more data.

 

As per Wag's forum sig, everything is subject to change, so we'll just have to wait and see.

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I was under the impression they had been having some more luck with the hunt for Thunderjug info but yeah as you said everything is subject to change I guess.

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I have been watching a superb documentary on the 262.

 

I didn't realise,that to get the tail up on take off,German pilots had to gently touch their brakes once the aircraft reached 120 mph.Once this was achieved,the tail would lift up off the ground and the aircraft would at this point take off.

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I have been watching a superb documentary on the 262.

 

I didn't realise,that to get the tail up on take off,German pilots had to gently touch their brakes once the aircraft reached 120 mph.Once this was achieved,the tail would lift up off the ground and the aircraft would at this point take off.

 

Very early prototype was a taildragger. The production Me262 had tricycle landing gear.

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Very early prototype was a taildragger. The production Me262 had tricycle landing gear.

 

Yes of course,the production model had the frontal landing gear didn't it?...... and this obviously solved the issue :doh:thx Solty.

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Jet Engine was new after first test Run they noticed without Prob stream on the Tail there is not enough lift for Take off and the Tail was in the slipstream of the Main Wing.

That's why they reengineered the Landing Gear to a 3 Pointer.

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

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Some information

 

I have a lot Information about the Me 262 and combat with it. If you want more Information just tell me. I also have the air victory statistics from the 1.1.1945 to the 3.5.1945. Everything is in german so i will have to try to make a Translation as soon as possible.

Here the air victory statistics from the 1.2.1945 to the 23.2.1945

attachment.php?attachmentid=157914&stc=1&d=1487940842

 

I will translate the upper line:______________________________Missions of the JG7

Date Squadron Target Strength____Bomb-_ Losses _________Unapproved Kills Losses

________________Bomber Fighters quantity

 

 

Cockpit description

attachment.php?attachmentid=157915&stc=1&d=1487941685

 

Drawings

attachment.php?attachmentid=157917&stc=1&d=1487942010

Abschusszahlen.thumb.jpg.4b71f5b54d6b06705879577347353b5b.jpg

1944925634_Andereseite.thumb.jpg.bd8347b8ecb8fd94ab4d0bfe13a91a1a.jpg


Edited by JuliMonkey

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attachment.php?attachmentid=158061&stc=1&d=1488100482

 

Heinz Bär scored 16 air kills in his Me 262 which makes him the second best Me 262 pilot

attachment.php?attachmentid=158062&stc=1&d=1488100738

 

Kurt Welter scored 25 air kills in the Me 262. In April 1944 he already scored 17 air kills in 15 missions with the Fw 190 A6.

attachment.php?attachmentid=158063&stc=1&d=1488100930

670721606_Me262Tarn.thumb.jpg.92120b9fa0363aa101180dc1141047b4.jpg

Scan0004.thumb.jpg.c82b69b2cf7148b6e9b08a3337410482.jpg

Scan0005.thumb.jpg.21cf50ada2b7851ffa724f7dffc150b7.jpg

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  • 3 months later...
R4M has included actualy in DCS World.

I think he's rendering to the possibility of the 262 actually carrying them as an option. The 190 carries them and the wg21's however the only options for the K-4 are the fuel tanks and bombs

 

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Quote below out of this thesis, good read, well researched if your looking for something to read.

 

"Development of the jet propelled fighter. There is no doubt that earlier development of the

ME 262 jet fighter would have had a profound effect on the air war over Western Europe.

Design of the airplane and its radical new power plant, the gas turbine engine, began in

1938, but the first aircraft did not fly until March of 1943. Finally, in the late Fall a few

of the aircraft began to trickle off the assembly line, but it was too late for them to make

a difference. Much has been written in the post war literature that Hitler's decision to use

the ME 262 as a bomber rather than as a fighter was crucial to the outcome of the war.

Though it was certainly a stupid decision when American bombs were raining on

Germany, the ME 262 arrived too late to have made a difference anyway. However, if it

had been available in large numbers as a fighter in the summer of 1943, the balance of

power in the air war would have swung to the Germans."

 

If Hitler really push for the Me 262 to be a fighter and the 262 had the chance to evolve some like the 109 had, it would have been a much much different battle over Normandy. Lucky Hitler messed up here with his strategy.

 

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Quote below out of this thesis, good read, well researched if your looking for something to read.

 

[snip of quote]

 

If Hitler really push for the Me 262 to be a fighter and the 262 had the chance to evolve some like the 109 had, it would have been a much much different battle over Normandy. Lucky Hitler messed up here with his strategy.

 

I actually think it wouldn't have made much difference. If the Luftwaffe had been able to field Me-262's in reasonable numbers at any point, the Meteor or the Vampire would have just recieved a big push and been flown in A2A.


Edited by Buzzles
it / if
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True Buzzles,

 

I guess it would have taken the allies a little to regroup, rebuild and change strategies, as the thesis points out, much was written about the decisions the Germans made here, they were good at tech, still are now lol.

 

The tech then was easy on the pilots in general, fuel injection, Auto-prop pitch etc, if they had put more resources when available I think the allies would have been scrambling a fair bit to counter.

 

Any way, coulda woulda shoulda. Going to be very fun to try out the Me 262 and be shot down when landing, it had little thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was very slow at the time.

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<<Going to be very fun to try out the Me 262 and be shot down when landing, it had little thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was very slow at the time.>>

Actually - the thrust only gets lower with higher speed ;) Thrust of jet engines (in general) rises only when reaching higher mach numbers (0.7 and up, roughly). So - the acceleration was bad no matter how fast you flew. Throttle response was not slow, quite vice versa, as there was little to no automation - which meant flameouts when you retarded throttle too fast - and engines setting on fire when you accelerated the throttle too fast. Flameouts would also occur at low throttle, iirc because the turbine would not provide enough air.

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I actually think it wouldn't have made much difference. If the Luftwaffe had been able to field Me-262's in reasonable numbers at any point, the Meteor or the Vampire would have just recieved a big push and been flown in A2A.

 

Not so easy. The allies needed long range airplanes to cover the bombers and all early jets had anything, but the range. Germany being on the defensive, didn't had such requirement. On the other hand, Me262 wasn't invincible, it was faster, but temperamental aircraft.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Germany being on the defensive, didn't had such requirement. On the other hand, Me262 wasn't invincible, it was faster, but temperamental aircraft.

 

 

Agreed,it also had the unfortunate turn rate of an oil taker too,this is where the tight turning Mustangs got the better of it,this and attacking them when they came into land,so agreed, they weren't invincible by any means.

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I thought the 'attacking them when they came into land' tactic came about not because they had the 'turn rate of an oil taker ' generally, but because they had short legs and the engines didn't respond well below a certain airspeed, so they were always heading for base, and once on approach were sitting ducks - which made them a better target than while they were at operating speed and altitude, because while there they were fairly safe from attack.

Cheers.

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Just watched a documentary about this !

 

'Attacking them when they came into land' came about because the Me-262 engine could not be boosted to full power immediately or even quickly --- it needed to be done very gradually, otherwise bag things would happen -- fire, explosions, badabing badaboom. This meant that after they have slowed down for landing, if attacked they could not re-power up and fly off without definitely exploding into a ball of flame. So they took their chances with the bullets. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

 

Incidentally, the reason for this "feature" of the engine was lack of access to exotic metal alloys out which to build specific parts (e.g. turbine blades, exhaust nozzles?) that could withstand the high temperatures, like chromium (which was only produced by Turkey and was firmly in British hands). The Me-262 was forced to use steel, which needed to be treated very delicately, and even then required complete replacement after 10 flights.

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The 262 was a dangerous machine that no pilot could ever master.

 

Bearfoot's spot on. The 262s revolutionary Junkers-built Jumo 004s were both the jet's gift and it's curse. The engines were as fragile as fine china because they were made from much lower grade materials due to mineral shortages. It's also documented that some of the 262's parts including engine internals, were manufactured by slave laborers in underground factories. As a result, many of the laborers would either sabotage parts, or, well, just construct them poorly.

 

Pilots had to be very careful with the 262's engines - particularly temperature and throttle movement. As for temperature, the blades inside the engine were unable to withstand the rigorous temperatures due to the poor quality of the metals, and would heat up and expand during flight at nearly full power settings. This did not become a problem until after the aircraft landed, when the blades would cool down, thus retracting and cracking. If this process was repeated many times at high temperatures, then the blades were known to shatter completely during flight, obviously causing catastrophic consequences for the poor engine. As for throttle movement, the engines would suffer flameouts if the throttle was moved too quickly, especially at high altitude. Obviously catastrophic for the 262 if he's being chased or is in the midst of an engagement.

 

The 262's engines had an absolutely horrible lifespan. A brand-new engine had a lifespan of just 28 hours, and refurbished engines were good for just another 10 or so hours between overhauls. An experienced pilot who's careful with the engines and aware of their limitations could potentially heighten the lifespan of the engines (and thus themselves!), but I generally hear that the engines were good for absolutely no longer than 35 hours.

 

The engines are one of the reasons the 262 fleet saw such limited operational capability in low numbers - many working jets had to have their engines cannibalized to keep other jets flying.


Edited by Kippy
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And also the pressure ratio of the engine is nothing, it takes a long time to speed up. Ramming air is really important to climb because of the extremely low pressure ratio of the engine, so getting some speed before climbing is really important.

 

I can imagine how difficult is to get some speed, especially at slower speeds and high altitudes. It's an easy target for P-51s.. Also in a dive, the compressibility is somewhat similar (P-51D and Me-262 AFAIK). The only way I can think about Me-262 being a success is keeping its energy, without that, you will die eventually, being the aircraft fault, or yours... I'm not fully aware of its problems but Kippy did a really good job saying a few of them.

 

Just to give you an idea of how terrible the engine is, the TF-34 GE-100A of the A-10 weighs a little bit more than 750kg, the Jumo 004B is 719kg! And it produces around 8kN, while the TF-34 is around 40, 41kN!

 

I know it's a stupid comparison, but that was just to give you an idea of how turbine engines evolved...

 

It's kinda funny though when players from a game which its name starts with the letter W, say Me-262 is an awesome machine and etc... I don't think they are fully aware of its problems!


Edited by Vitormouraa
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The 262 by all means is an awesome machine ; I'd legitimately give my left arm to fly one. It simply comes down to the fact that with the 262 you have to be absolutely very well aware of it's limitations and have the utmost respect for the machine. I see the 262 as a strange quantity, to be treated much like any dangerous substance. She has to be put in qualified hands and treated just right. If not, she will wreak havoc on the user. You have to have some level of respect and faith with any machine that you trust your life with - this goes for all aircraft. Heh, look at me - the kooky guy who respects airplanes like they are sentient beings.

 

The 262 simply had shortcomings in the engines that would be expected of any country under siege, unable to produce proper quality metal. The 262 was constructed hastily and poorly as a last ditch effort to perhaps win air superiority and drive off the allied bombers that ravaged German cities and infrastructure. (Of course this was after Hitler was informed that producing it as a bomber wasn't exactly the best idea, which.. he did anyway) If the 262 had the time to properly mature and have the kinks worked out, and to produce the aircraft with the proper quality, it would have been a very threatening machine to the allied air forces. However, the 262 is a perfect example of an initially disregarded and then rushed product; too little numbers and too late in the war to make a difference. The Luftwaffe lost most of it's experienced pilots before the 262 saw heavy use, and as such the pilots flying her were inexperienced and improperly trained due to the Luftwaffe trying to make up for mounting losses.

 

I believe the 262s characteristics with energy management and engine operation will make her the most challenging module in DCS to actually fly. I'm looking forward to this. The 262 will be the reason I get into the WW2 side of DCS.

 

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