DCS P51 Campaign: Mission 7: Navigation --> Fail to reach 20,000 feet

An additional point: As fully open throttle can no longer maintain climb manifold pressure, increase RPM to keep MAP up. It's a supercharger, running off the crank, so the maximum pressure ratio it can provide is linked to engine RPM.

I'm maintaining 3000RPM the entire flight. But if the supercharger is running at an RPM relative to the engines RPM it too is running at the same "speed" the entire time. But the higher I fly the less air--measured in pressure--there is to compress and the effectivity drops with altitude. That's when the high setting should be kicking in. I think it is, but it's making no difference.

Tracks dont always playback correctly... especially if you fast forward through them....

I let it run at normal speed so that I could observe the instrument readouts. The entire thing only ran about 7 minutes before the crash occurred.

I'm maintaining 3000RPM the entire flight.

Well, that's one thing then - don't. That generates more heat in the engine than necessary. Go by the book.

You previously stated you used 2700/46". It is hard to offer advice if you are covertly changing your procedures.

There's a big yellow light on the dash telling you if the supercharger 2nd stage has kicked in. Not that you're likely to miss it regardless... as it does make a lot of difference.

1) Based on what?

I'm completely new to DCS, but I'm obviously not the only person experiencing this issue. I would say Winston's statement was made on experience and I would tend to agree with it.

2) This has been reported and I believe fixed internally.

3) As I understand it, its the nature of the auto-rads, they cant keep up to quick changes in conditions.

I personally am not making any quick changes. During my last two attempts I'm setting RPM to 3000 and leaving it there the entire time. MP is about 50 until I start losing power toward 5k feet and start pushing it upward slowly; first to 55 then 60.

I'm also trying to maintain and even climb without IAS dropping below 170. Under 5k feet I can manage 2000 f/M climb and still hover around 200 IAS. Above 5k feet I have to reduce to 1000 f/m climb and speed is closing in on 170. Above 12k feet I have to reduce climb to 500 f/m and am hitting 170 or just above.

But around 15k feet, Oil and cooling temps are maxed out even with 170 IAS. Eventually oil pressure starts to fall off steadily until it's at 0. I imagine this is the expected results of red-lining everything else for so long.

With the loss of oil pressure engine power disappears too until around 17k feet even with the gyro on the horizon I can't maintain even 100 IAS and am only losing altitude.

4) Only thing remotely like this I have seen is the fact that the AI are generally a better shot than most real players, otherwise I dont see an engine failure difference... in any case we would need to see a track, showing the same conditions for both SP and MP showing the issue.

I'm experiencing this in the campaign. Track attached.

5) You are off topic.

From my standpoint these issues with oil temp and pressure is right on topic.

2015-02-17 campaign TO Nav Land - 20k climb 05 fail.rar

Please sir, have a look at WinterOwl's playlist of the whole DCS Mustang campaign.

 

 

He posted those very good videos including his errors so you can see what he was doing wrong and how he fixed it.

It helped me a lot when i was trying myself to go through these missions! :-)

 

If i remember well, you can't pass this mission because you forget 2 things:

 

The ram air

The mixture.

 

Have a look at the videos and you will see what i mean.

Part 4 and 5 will solve this for you

Thanks for your replay Eros. I've looked at the video where WinterOwl manages to complete the mission without any trouble at all.

Two things are vary apparent:

1) The painting of the P-51 are not the same as what is currently given in the campaign at patch level 1.2.4.

2) WinterOwl uploaded that video to YT in July 2013. I suspect he was running a previous patch level.

So unfortunately, at the current patch level, the video doesn't help. The issue WinterOwl had was that on his first attempt he had set the Mixture knob to RUN AUTO/LEAN and this didn't give him enough power.

Damn, incorrect DCS track playback at its best. And I wasn't even using time compression during my flight so You could play it flawlessly. The track should last ~30 minutes and end after reaching top gate at 30k feet (that's how fast You should get there by the way, including startup, warmup and take-off). My game version is 1.2.14.36041 final, what's Yours? Version mismatches always mess up any attempts to play older/newer tracks.

To describe how it should look - as I said. I was keeping ~46" 2700 RPM and flying not slower than 170 MPH IAS almost all the time, with exception of the last few thousand feet of 1st supercharger gear operation, when MAP dropped somewhat and I lost some speed. Oil pressures and temps were always off the mark, but not enough to cause any engine seizure, that's why they are kind of off-topic when we're discussing this particular campaign mission. Coolant temp touched the redline here and there (rads on auto), but there was nothing to worry about.

Something's seriously not right in You attempts, You shouldn't be loosing power that much. Just to make sure: flight model on "simulation"? Air intake controls on "ram" and "cold"? Mixture on "run"? Rudder properly trimmed?

I'll try to watch Your track on mine install and see what happens.

Don't allow the speed to drop when MAP can't be maintained. Lower the nose instead and let the aircraft keep flying as it's designed to do.

Yep, that's probably more "pro" way to fly, but I just wanted to point out that even when the speed drops to 155-160 for 2-3 minutes, reaching this particular gate at 20k while flying in the straight line is still feasible, so Captain Orso should not have dramatic problems with doing it.

Capt, as for the track, let's call it a draw - I tried to play Yours, and on my computer, Your plane taxied right into the building :D. But at least I could see You set the intakes and mixture right, so the problem lies elsewhere.

P.S. - On a sidenote, as for Winston's claims from previous page - I recall YoYo's drawing showing the speed graph being pretty close to the real thing for 61" MAP power setting. The fact that such limit is not quite historically correct for late '44 P-51s is of course another matter, but still, performance-wise nothing seems to have changed in Mustang's FM since last year, same thing with radiator automation and questionable damage modelling in SP and MP. So, saying, that the plane "used to be fine" and all these things were "broken" by the latest patches is wrong - the "oil scandal" is the only mess-up introduced with 1.2.12.

1) Based on what?

2) This has been reported and I believe fixed internally.

3) As I understand it, its the nature of the auto-rads, they cant keep up to quick changes in conditions.

4) Only thing remotely like this I have seen is the fact that the AI are generally a better shot than most real players, otherwise I dont see an engine failure difference... in any case we would need to see a track, showing the same conditions for both SP and MP showing the issue.

5) You are off topic.

1: Based on personal experience, 2-1/4 hrs in a 'back seat' P-51D conversion.

2: Hmmmmm...... Why don't we have this yet? (One patch already released since we were told it was fixed.... internally)

3: You couldn't be more wrong. A P-51D in good repair can climb all day at 46 inches of MP and 2700 RPM at 170MPH on full auto rads and never approach coolant or oil temp red lines. Been there, done it.

4. In single player, eminent engine failure is warned by various sounds and the engines performance gradually degrades in power and RPM. In multiplayer there's no warning sounds, no reduction of power or RPM... the engine just abruptly seizes. You don't need a track. Just jump into any single player mission and abuse the aircraft. Then jump into any multiplayer mission and do the same for the same amount of time. You can't miss the difference.

5. I don't think so. We're talking about performance here right?

An interesting short read on P-51 flying.

http://www.warbirdalley.com/articles/p51pr.htm

Well, that's one thing then - don't. That generates more heat in the engine than necessary. Go by the book.

 

You previously stated you used 2700/46". It is hard to offer advice if you are covertly changing your procedures.

*sigh* I've tried about 7 times altogether now. Only the last time was with 3000 RPM for the entire flight. But I'll try again staying within the sustained performance parameters by the book.

There's a big yellow light on the dash telling you if the supercharger 2nd stage has kicked in. Not that you're likely to miss it regardless... as it does make a lot of difference.

:) I may well have for paying attention to the engine indicators on the right side of the instrument panel :music_whistling:. I'll pay more attention the next time :smilewink:.

1. Umm, you know who ED is connected to right?

2. This has been explained many times why not everything can be brought over from the internal version

3. Talk to the devs, who themselves talk to P-51 Pilots, as well, please read what I said, that the auto rads couldnt keep up with sudden changes, I can fly the Mustang on full auto with no issues as long as I am mindful of what I am doing, and lets remember your experience is non-combat too... least I would imagine it is...

4. You werent talking about warning signs before, you were talking about the difference between MP and SP with the engine in mind, pick a topic. Engine warning signs have already been acknowledged by the devs and in a couple cases reported by testers.

5. We are talking about Failing Mission 7 of the challenge campaign... is everyone failing it? Or is it specific to the flying styles of a couple users?

1 through 5: I'm not trying to say they didn't have the proper info once, or doubting that they have their own experiences in high performance aircraft. The DCS P-51 wasn't broken here until just recently. A few patches back it was fine. Now it's broken.

I'm saying that right now the DCS P-51D's engine and cooling systems modeling is wrong, be it intentional or by bugs. The poor OP is trying to take a badly bugged aircraft through a high performance climb scenario in an airplane with a severe disability. Maybe he should wait and try again after the promised bug fixes are finally released to us.

You are just arguing for the sake of argument. Knock it off and face the facts. It's broken!

If the oil overheating and causing power loss is not a "bug" but only a figment of a few people's imaginations, you cold certainly prove this, and make and end to this discussion, by demonstrating how Mission 7 is flown at the current patch level. I would venture to say that with all the experience and ability you posses it would hardly be a challenge.

Current patch. Mission 7 no problem. Don't get fussy. 46" MAP, 2700rpm, Auto Rads. Just remember to maintain 46" MAP as it drops off in the climb to 20,000ft or you may end up low and on a go-around. Oil temp approached red line during the early stages but spent most time in the green as did engine coolant. Fly easy, steady climb, keep speed >= 170. Was 200+ much of the time.

Oil overheating is a bug, power loss is not... because there is no power loss! I got through mission 7 back in 1.2.8 times, and I did it 2 days ago in 1.2.14, in exactly the same way. Posted a track, but it doesn't play correctly, described how I did it, what else can I do? I don't have any screen capturing software installed and I don't think like doing so just for the sake of this discussion.

I'm sure of one thing, however. Even when oil bug gets to us in next patch, Capt Orso will still fail in the mission, because with exactly the same power output, problem must be located somewhere else.

I'm beginning to think you're right Art-J, but where I'm I going wrong is the question.

Before starting the campaign I was flying the training missions and a couple of missions I had copied from them. I had only changed the skins and set the missions to start from the ramp so that I could practice startup procedures each time. With these I never had any issues with startup nor power-output. Everything was exactly as every body has described.

But I had never tried to climb above a few of thousand feet with these mission. Now I started one of them and did just that. I climbed to 30k feet--with no issues, just as has been described by so many in this thread.

I then started campaign mission 7 again and while starting up I noted that right after starting the engine there's a loud *CLACK* noise. I'd heard this before while starting up for this mission, but I'd never head it outside of this mission, and hadn't paid any attention to it until now.

I then went back to the main menu and selected "Mission"--not Campaign--, navigated tot he P-51D folders => campaign and selected "Mission 7" and started that. I wanted to see if the noise had anything to do with running the campaign.

I ran through my normal startup procedure and again right after the engine starts there's the loud *CLACK*. So I started over again and filmed the whole thing and put it on YT. The noise can be heard at about 1:17-1:18. If anybody knows what this is or what's causing it, I would much appreciate your information.

I quit the mission right after recording the noise, and the log says nothing about anything being broken as when you burn-out the starter, but maybe because it's not what the game considers to be a mission-killing event.

The noise is the landing gear doors closing as the hydraulic system comes up to pressure. It's normal.

Have screenshots of the gear doors open with the engine off in a cold start, and closing after the engine starts.

I'm sorry, but the only thing keeping people from completing mission 7 is their own skill. It's not easy to maintain a 170mph sustained climb, especially because the manifold pressure is dropping off as you climb.

The oil viscosity bug does not rob power, it does not damage the engine, it just makes the gauge read wrong, and makes the aircraft harder to start. I've spent many hours flying the P-51 and the only things I can damage the engine with are oil and coolant temperature, high RPMS, and high manifold pressures. I do not believe the engine model is advanced enough that it is simulating damage from a lack of lubrication due to the wrong viscosity oil.

Yep, the sound is normal and audible every time the plane is started (or at least it should be). Maybe You just didn't pay attention to it previously.

I've flown the mission again, but this time to the very end - maybe when it's not cut in half, the track will replay on Your PC correctly. Try it and let me know how it works. File's available in the link below:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/k5s6rl

If You got the plane to 30k once relatively easily, You can see now it should be done the similar way in the mission 7. The only tip I can give is flying through the 10k gate fast (max continuous power), so You can use the excessive energy and zoom up a little before the hard work sustained climb for the 20k gate begins.

Thanks for your replies and for the new track.

I still can't play the track through without it going askew. Everything looks normal until shortly after you started taxiing toward the runway. About half way through the right turn to get onto the taxiway parallel to the runway you suddenly stop turning, roll across the field, diagonally across the road going directly from the parking area to the runways and then stop about 100 yards from the runway facing about 20-25° left of perpendicular to the runway. From there you accelerate and start and fly over the water. After about 5 minutes flight you bank right and start descending steeply until you hit the water :cry:.

I also compared your track file to mine. The track files are actually zip-format archives, so I unpacked them and compared the files contained within. I'm using WinMerge to compare files. I noted that our "mission" files are very different.

If I unpack the actually mission file from my installation ("Mission 07 - Navigation.miz") and compare the "mission" file within with the "mission" file from one of my tracks I got through running the campaign, they are identical.

If I compare the "Mission 07 - Navigation.miz" "mission" file with a track I got by starting the mission through the mission menu--not the campaign menu--they are very different.

If I then compared the "mission" file from your track with the "mission" file from one of my tracks I got from starting the mission through the mission menu, they are nearly identical, only varying through the list of installed modules.

My conclusion is:

1. You ran the mission by starting it through the mission menu, as I would have expected, because I don't think you can select it directly through the campaign menu. At least I cannot. I can only select the aircraft and then "Next", "Back" or "Restart Campaign", but not the mission itself.

2. Running the campaign is changing the way the P-51D works in profound way.

The other thing which works differently in the campaign is TRIM. When I fly a mission started from the mission menu I can trim the P-51D and fly it straight and level over any distance only using trim adjustments without any issue. In the campaign trim does not work nearly at all.

Something is profoundly wrong with running the campaign, not the mission itself, the campaign mode.

Good to know they're zips, that's new to me :D. Took a look inside them like You did, too many variables to draw conclusions at the moment though. I can understand why "options" files are a bit different - I've got "use these options for all missions" in DCS gameplay settings clicked to override all default campaign ones, but why "mission" files are different is puzzling for me.

I'd really like to find out which file causes replay mess-up (maybe the "action" one, where all controller input data is saved I presume), but that's the subject for future investigations.

Yep, I ran the mission 7 "manually" through the editor. Can You complete it doing the same?

Yup, just did it. From start to landing almost exactly 1:00 hour on the second :), and that's with one fly-around over the starting airfield because I apparently missed third gate and all of them were still green :doh:.

Behavior when starting from mission menu is sooooooOOOOOooooo different. It was nice to complete the mission for once without quiting in frustration after 3/4 of an hour at 13k feet when I couldn't even fly level and maintain altitude :shocking:.

I feel like I've earned this now :drink: :smilewink:

But I'd still like to do it in campaign mode so I complete the campaign :(

You can manually advance the campaign by editing a file. Read up on it here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2180489&postcount=740

Capt, just for the record, You might not be able to "complete" the campaign anyway, because game patches have a nasty habit of breaking some campaign missions every now and then (devs rarely check whether old missions work with new game versions).

I didn't actually complete mine, because some broken script prevented me from progressing to the vary last mission. I opened and played it via the editor, 'cause I was curious how it would end. So don't feel bad If You're gonna have to do the same ;).

Oh, my :huh:. I guess we'll find out just how OCD I am now :D.