1.2.12 -- radar modeling - fighters vs helos

The helicopters will not be detected on the fighter radar in BVR mode if helicopter will flies slower threshold speed (140 km/h) at the terrain background, even if the fighter flies lower than helicopter (radar look-up).

 

first - i like this, this is a good development

 

second - are there no differences between "fighter radars"?

 

its an oft-repeated statistic, the US spends more on defense than the next twelve highest spending nations, combined ------ what does that level of investment get you?

 

"fairness"?

 

"gameplay"?

 

uh.. NO

 

 

 

i would propose that radar performance differs between aircraft - higher performance, more modern platforms should have an advantage

 

so, i would expect f-16s would do a better job at detecting helos on the deck than mig-23s (AI obviously) --- and f-15s should fare better than su-27s

 

etc

Finally somebody raised the word. The devs should decide if they want to make a simulator or a game. And I'm sure, that it is possible to make an even sim, or game or whatever you wanna call it. For example the SU-27/33, MiG-29 are having the datalink capability, why on earth can't we have a better radar on the Eagle?

 

SDsc0rch, thanks for the idea, I hope many will comment on this.

I was always under the impression that different radars were accurately modeled for different aircraft.

If you make Western tech better than Soviet/Russian tech for comparable planes you run the risk of making this GAME unplayable in multiplayer.

also then you need to take into account other real world issues, like Russians probably having much more aircrafts to fight in the theater we have (are you willing to have 10 su27 per each f15 you get in Georgia in return for better radar?, and of course you cant model that in multiplayer)

I think this is much less of an issue with more modern AESA radars. Though no current playable aircraft in DCS has one.

If you make Western tech better than Soviet/Russian tech for comparable planes you run the risk of making this GAME unplayable in multiplayer. ...

 

 

yes

 

this is EXACTLY what i am saying

 

better jets are (wait for it..) BETTER JETS

yes

 

this is EXACTLY what i am saying

 

better jets are (wait for it..) BETTER JETS

 

All it will do is make the aim120 less of a noob weapon, whenever you add something better its always the noob weapon, the aim120 takes the least amount of skill of any missile to use right now, take it out and it makes the r27er the noob weapon, etc...

you run the risk of making this GAME unplayable in multiplayer.

 

This is a sim, not a game.

 

Everything should be modeled as accurately as possible. Nothing should be done for game balancing purposes.

 

It is up to mission designers to set the missions up to be balanced. Players and admins should also aim to balance missions as much as possible.

This is a sim, not a game.

 

Everything should be modeled as accurately as possible. Nothing should be done for game balancing purposes.

 

It is up to mission designers to set the missions up to be balanced. Players and admins should also aim to balance missions as much as possible.

 

But this is also game no matter how "realistic" it trys to be.

 

BUT im with you, this is wrong way to balance game or sim. :smartass:

But this is also game no matter how "realistic" it trys to be.

 

BUT im with you, this is wrong way to balance game or sim. :smartass:

 

you don't balance sims, their meant to emulate real life, real life isn't balanced, what is better is better...

 

you balance the scenario, you use the mission editor and choose what weapons the players have available to them, and balance it that way.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Hadwell

I don't understand the problem here, in DCS a helicopter above 140km/h will be seen by a more powerful radar such as an F-15 at greater range than a MiG-29 radar.

Why are we even having a discussion over the fidelity of jets which aren't high fidelity models anyway and which are designed for 'gamers' in the first place?

Why are we even having a discussion over the fidelity of jets which aren't high fidelity models anyway and which are designed for 'gamers' in the first place?

Becauase the trend points to then being converted into more accurate sims as time progresses.

IIRC rotor doppler return is still disabled. That would result in a detrimental increase in visibility of helos on radar. What about that? ...

If you make Western tech better than Soviet/Russian tech for comparable planes you run the risk of making this GAME unplayable in multiplayer.

also then you need to take into account other real world issues, like Russians probably having much more aircrafts to fight in the theater we have (are you willing to have 10 su27 per each f15 you get in Georgia in return for better radar?, and of course you cant model that in multiplayer)

You can model that very easy in MUltiplayer. jzst delete a few F-15 slots and add more Su-27 slots...there is still tzhe option to have BLUFOR Su-27. The current USAF F-15 vs. IDF F-15 is a bit weary for much to long. Also, just give a mission much more CAS slots than figter slots problem solved.

 

Its the missions for MP public that make everything 1:1 not the sim itself. And to add to this...Helos are no primary opponet for CAP aircraft....if a mission is flown somewhat in a reasonable manner it should be Su-25 and A-10 that run into helicopters and the one or the other low level MiG-21 on a bombing run.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Beagle One

first - i like this, this is a good development

 

second - are there no differences between "fighter radars"?

 

its an oft-repeated statistic, the US spends more on defense than the next twelve highest spending nations, combined ------ what does that level of investment get you?

 

"fairness"?

 

"gameplay"?

 

uh.. NO

 

 

 

i would propose that radar performance differs between aircraft - higher performance, more modern platforms should have an advantage

 

so, i would expect f-16s would do a better job at detecting helos on the deck than mig-23s (AI obviously) --- and f-15s should fare better than su-27s

 

etc

You can't really buy inventions and better results. Money just helps to get raw materials if needed but to actually improve the most important factor that is the brain power, not even hiring people will help there.

 

It is interesting as far I know the radars works currently On/Off manner. You either are on the range or not. So RWR picking up signal far before signal bounces back to lighters doesn't seem to be there. Notch etc does seem to work and all other fancier things from Mig-21 radar etc.

 

When it comes to helicopters, they are easy to spot via radar. The fuselag isn't the main radar bouncer but the rotor blades are. As radar works by comparing the timings of the received signals to you, the technology to have "look-down" radar is required only. Notch works because you get ground behind you and your fuselage speed to beamer basically stops, becoming a "static object" (against older radars). Helicopter rotors are rotating all the time, on one side the blades are rotating forward and one side rotating away, at high speed (rotor RPM is kept steady all the time) around 300km/h and straight and round edges the blades are, are pointing to all directions continually. The radars can even identify a helicopter type by the signal, how many rotor blades it has and can even spot the flight style of the pilot from how blades are operated.

 

So if the radar can look-down (old tech), helicopters are easy to find as long the rotor disks are visible to radar. What eliminates the idea of "stealth helicopter" completely until the blades material can be 100% energy observed so it "sucks" radar emissions (and would work same time as RWR) and that is pretty huge task as the rotor "is the helicopter" aerodynamically.

 

Until someone "rotates" helicopter upside down, so the helicopter fuselage is over rotor disk, helicopter can't sneak around any radar without using terrain to block radar emissions reaching it. And then the fuselage could be made less visible and allow it to do "invisible pop-up" with some surprising manners. It is perfectly possible by aerodynamics and even the flight characters would stay same as fly-by-wire does rotate your controls around.

 

PS. Don't you think the "Defense" is a strange word if the military is all around the world outside of their country borders

Why are we even having a discussion over the fidelity of jets which aren't high fidelity models anyway and which are designed for 'gamers' in the first place?

 

Let's hope you don't bring anymore silly sweeping statements like that to this thread.

EDs airbourne radiowave fidelity is as good as anything available.

If you make Western tech better than Soviet/Russian tech for comparable planes you run the risk of making this GAME unplayable in multiplayer.

also then you need to take into account other real world issues, like Russians probably having much more aircrafts to fight in the theater we have (are you willing to have 10 su27 per each f15 you get in Georgia in return for better radar?, and of course you cant model that in multiplayer)

It isn't unfair if one plane has different tech....

 

Is it now unfair that soviet A-A missiles are mainly a semi-active?

 

Or that Mig-29 can't engage two targets simultaneously? (Is it still so?)

 

To get the ratio up, we would need more players unless wanted to fly with AI...

 

I don't even currently know does the datalink for inertial guidance work between launching platform and missiles.

As example Su-27 would have longer kinectic range with R-27 to engage F-15C with AMRAAM because launch speed benefit. And if otherside forces AMRAAM launched platform to defensive or turn radar off, the AMRAAM is semi-dumb and easily avoided if getting outside of the basket before seeker activates.

 

I have no clue does these work in DCS.

 

The day we have Su-30MKI and Mig-21Bison level tech in planes in DCS, other side starts screaming help when silent flanking planes fires missiles guided in by a another one via data link.

You can model that very easy in MUltiplayer. jzst delete a few F-15 slots and add more Su-27 slots...there is still tzhe option to have BLUFOR Su-27. The current USAF F-15 vs. IDF F-15 is a bit weary for much to long. Also, just give a mission much more CAS slots than figter slots problem solved.

 

Blufor 27s is dumb as well, considering only the ukraine has them, and they have a few

i would propose that radar performance differs between aircraft - higher performance, more modern platforms should have an advantage

 

so, i would expect f-16s would do a better job at detecting helos on the deck than mig-23s (AI obviously) --- and f-15s should fare better than su-27s

 

etc

 

What makes you so sure that the F-16 would have a better radar and/or performance than the mig-23? As far as I remember, they did a rather decent job in shooting down the F-16's in Syrian hands :).

If you make Western tech better than Soviet/Russian tech for comparable planes you run the risk of making this GAME unplayable in multiplayer.

also then you need to take into account other real world issues, like Russians probably having much more aircrafts to fight in the theater we have (are you willing to have 10 su27 per each f15 you get in Georgia in return for better radar?, and of course you cant model that in multiplayer)

 

There's nothing wrong with the way the tech works. It's how life works, each side has advantages and disadvantages. This is a sim, if you want to worry about "balance" go play an arcade game like battlefield or something. There's no place in the sim community for balance gripers. Realism gripers, yeah, I can understand them.

 

Besides, I've evaded and killed plenty of f-15s in my flanker.

 

On a side note, friendly sams now show up on RWR? Is this a new feature?

Edited December 4, 2014 by GenericFloat

if you (truly) want "balance," fly f-15 vs f-15

 

or SU vs SU

 

there's your "balance" (psst - they do this in real life too!)

 

 

if you want a SIMULATION, "simulate" the real aircraft to as much fidelity as humanly possible

The problem is that stationary helis are detectable as long as the rotor's spinning, and at considerable distance.

 

Some radar sets are able to handle the way this signal looks, some are not.

 

I don't understand the problem here, in DCS a helicopter above 140km/h will be seen by a more powerful radar such as an F-15 at greater range than a MiG-29 radar.

If they do, that's good. The RWR has no way of knowing what's what. Friendly SAMs not showing on RWR is a 'game' feature, not realistic. It was there to help out with players that chose aircraft with RWRs that weren't so great at giving you SA as those of other aircraft.

 

On a side note, friendly sams now show up on RWR? Is this a new feature?

Edited December 4, 2014 by GGTharos

The problem is that stationary helis are detectable as long as the rotor's spinning, and at considerable distance.

 

Some radar sets are able to handle the way this signal looks, some are not.

 

But this doesn't exist in the game, does it? :)