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Old 01-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #21
Frostiken
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Originally Posted by TigersharkBAS View Post
You know...sometimes reading threads that I would otherwise find innocuous strangely make me angry.

I read through this thread and I am amazed at people's comments about pricing. The price doesn't suit you, fine, you ahve 2 options. Don't buy it or hey, make one yourself.

Until you have tried making something like this yourself you most likely have very little idea about how much work goes into a product like this (I develop in iOS...I do). Why people feel compelled to tell the world about why they think the prices is so high really mystifies me. Opinions are like armpits. People have more than one and they usually stink.

30 buck is not unreasonable, especially given the niche market of this. boarder isn't going to sell a 100,000 copies of this is he? To cover his costs (and I'm sure his time is worth every bit as we think our time is worth) I don't think what he asks is unreasonable. Is a little high? Maybe. Is comparable with what you would pay for any other hobby for an accessory? Yes.

As for the Android stuff. *sigh* People also seem to think that when you program stuff all of sudden you have indepth knowledge of every variant of programming language and the devices to run it on.

If you really want it on your Android, program it yourself or approach someone to do it for you. It's for iOS....get over it. It already takes significant effort to develop it for one device what makes people think that us hobbyist programmers are just dying to spend even more time learning other platforms that don't interest us just to cater for their device choice.

There is this sense of entitlement people on the Internet have just rubs me the wrong way....a lot.
1) Before anything else, realize that his post is spam. On any other forum you'd see this locked because I don't see why ED resources should be used to help this guy make a pile of money from people with more money than sense, and it's not like he's even passing money on to ED, despite the fact that the program is completely reliant on ED code. Yes, they made that code for the purposes of exporting information, but to then go ahead and use it to make money almost seems lawsuit-worthy. There's an entire section of the EULA that says that nothing you create for personal use that uses anything provided by the program (in this case, I would say export.lua counts) can be used for commercial gain. But I digress: with that in mind, if you feel compelled to post advertising for an overpriced app, I am well within my rights to respond to advertising.

2) I honestly don't care how much or how little effort it took. All I know is that this app is more or less totally identical to software that already exists for free. The only difference is iPad exclusivity which translates to a captive market. There's nothing illegal about selling software you made, but the problem I see is that the creator(s) of Helios have no problem working on their project for the community for free, this guy wants an exorbitant amount of money for it. That just makes him look bad. If Helios never existed and this was a one-of-a-kind product, I probably wouldn't even be having this conversation because this would be amazing, but it's not. He saw Helios, essentially copied the whole idea, made his own version of it, and is profiting from it.

3) Whether or not I can do something is totally irrelevant. I can't build an airline company from scratch, and neither can you, yet I guarantee you you've complained about fees, lines, unhelpful people, etc. I also don't own my own milk cows, does that mean I can't complain when Tescos hikes the price of milk and then immediately discounts it to the original price and acts like it's a sale?

4) $30 isn't unreasonable? Says who, you? The economies of scale barely even apply in the world of home-grown software. With physical goods, you raise prices on goods that won't sell very much because you need to pay off your overhead before you make a profit, and with small batches that cost gets translated into fewer units equating to a much higher price. For example, military aircraft computers... Honeywell may only sell 200 F-15 ADCPs, so they have to factor in the cost of R&D, testing, tooling, manufacturing, and supporting the product, with all the salaries of everyone involved, and a profit, which is why they cost half a million dollars each. In the case of this, he has $100 overhead for the iOS SDK. That's it.

5) Sense of entitlement? Seriously? First, his product is in direct competition with something that's currently free, so a sense of entitlement (in this case, expecting it to be not-overpriced) is actually justified. Second, it's a PAY-FOR PRODUCT. How do you get a sense of entitlement from something you'd be paying for? Finally, people are asking him to try to make one for Android. Whether or not that's possible is irrelevant, they probably don't know how much work it is, you being a douchebag about it helps nothing.

Finally:

Quote:
There is this sense of entitlement people on the Internet have just rubs me the wrong way....a lot.
People who bitch about other people voicing opinions they disagree with, while simultaneously spewing their own garbage out of both ends as if it were the word of god rub me the wrong way....a lot.



By the way, understand that if his software utilizes ED's code to function (hooked into their exporting code, which I have reason to believe it is), it may even be illegal to sell it under the language used in the EULA.

Frankly, despite what you may think, most of this I don't really care about. This rant is simply me laying everything about this app on the line. I don't care if this really does violate the EULA because I'm not the ones losing out on anything. It's not my job to care, I'm not here to armchair lawyer on behalf of ED, and I'm also not telling him his product is shit and he should feel bad. I *do*, however, care about how similar this is to Helios and how he's basically exploiting the community with an idea he didn't even have on his own. Is that capitalism? Sure it is. Does that mean it's morally just? That it forgives everything? We as gamers get angry when companies do less - with their OWN products - and charge money or exploit their customers... just because this is an individual doesn't mean he should be free from the same criticism. So there it is: I think it's morally wrong to repackage an idea the community created before and not only sell it simply because you can, but to sell it for such a hyper-inflated price is just rubbing salt in the wound.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:04 PM   #22
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Frositken,

Holy heck mate... I agree with 100% of that actually!

Well worded.

And yes it is an open public forum, if you are going to advertise a product on ANOTHER companys product page (basically the same as going on Apples forums and posting "Hey look at this sweet new tablet I just released... only $29.99") , expect some flak.

That being said, IF I owned an ipad (never will) I would probably buy this.

Since I don't, I am interested in other versions for my specific tablet.

Don't like the criticism ? Jog on
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostiken View Post
until ED says otherwise, I can comment on it as much as I damn-well want.
I mostly agree with your post frostiken, but I presume that they already got ED's consent for this thread seeing as forum rule 1.9 is VERY clear:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum rule 1.9
Advertisement of products or services without prior consent from the forum staff is strictly prohibited.
Weather the first post is advertisement or information probably depends on interpretation though....
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #24
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Well said Frostiken.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:49 PM   #25
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I can't believe you took that much time out of your life to respond. If you can't afford 30 bucks, get a free one or his free app. The fact that simming, like other hobbies such as RC helicopters/planes, sports, musical instruments cost money. People spend far more money on things that they enjoy because they get enjoyment out of them. To say that $30 is a lot of money is a joke considering in order to run this simulation you need a video card that far exceeds that of a "home office" type environment. You need a joystick at the least. The status of the economy has been proven to have little impact on how Americans spend their hobby money. Doesn't matter if they're broke, they still buy things that make them happy.

So his SDK cost him 100 bucks. Say he sells a few hundred licenses. His take home is what 1000 - 2500 bucks? A developer makes anywhere between 40 and 65 bucks an hour and well over 100 on a contract basis? Seems like an appropriate amount of money to me.

And to make accusations that he's breaking the law is absurd. Your comments could even be considered slanderous. He's posting on the software developers web forum. You think he would do that if he didn't have permission?

Seriously. if you can't afford it don't buy it. But to tell a guy who takes his own time out of his life to create something that works BETTER than the free apps (and most of them aren't free, they require you to buy certain things to make them work) that exist is just plain old Trolling.

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Old 01-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Turk10mm View Post
And to make accusations that he's breaking the law is absurd. Your comments could even be considered slanderous. He's posting on the software developers web forum. You think he would do that if he didn't have permission?

Please... now we're going to do the back and forth 'litigious' bs ?

Since we can all agree this is a forum provided for our enjoyment by a business entity and company, I think it is safe to say that one persons comments are just as entitled to be freely posted as the next.

Besides of which, just because someone does something and gets away with it (for the moment) does not automatically make it right.

Ya dig?
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Old 01-20-2012, 06:21 PM   #27
33| 309th_Hedgehog
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Back to the topic ;-)

when I start A10VCServer I will only see a DOS windos for a second and then ... nothing happens

(Have the 64 bit version)

Any suggestion? Is there a logfile which gives some explanation?
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Old 01-20-2012, 06:47 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 33| 309th_Hedgehog View Post
Back to the topic ;-)

when I start A10VCServer I will only see a DOS windos for a second and then ... nothing happens

(Have the 64 bit version)

Any suggestion? Is there a logfile which gives some explanation?
When you run the file you download it will create a folder called Setup x64 with the installer in that folder. This isn't very clear, hopefully I'll have a better solution in place for the next version.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by boarder2 View Post
When you run the file you download it will create a folder called Setup x64 with the installer in that folder. This isn't very clear, hopefully I'll have a better solution in place for the next version.
It might help if this is explained on the site. But those pages are pretty minimal in explaining how to use the software and what to do when something unexpected happens.

I'm really interested in this, but the past few hours trying to get it to work really cooled my enthousiasm. Hope you can help. I don't think 30$ is too much if it does what it's supposed to to.

Should I contact you at software@bit-shift.com or post an extensive problem report here?

(also tried to contact you through YouTube)
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:58 AM   #30
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Should I contact you at software@bit-shift.com
Yeah, email would be best!
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