C-101CC September release?

I wish I had known that when I paid $42 for this module 9 months ago. Of course harassing them for updates isn't constructive nor will it help get things done faster, thankfully everyone is being polite and considerate, but I'm not sure the passive "leave them alone and don't hold them accountable for anything" attitude is the right one either.

 

It'd be nice to know in what state the team and the development is.

 

We all understand delays. Still, on a personal level, that module stained my DCS World enthusiasm and the C-101 development state is the sole reason I didn't support and pre-order the ED Nevada map and the Razbam Mirage 2000C (as badly as I wanted to) and will instead wait for the released product.

I'm the same in terms of wanting some more info about project status, but I haven't let it dampen my enthusiasm. My general take is that I'm giving each developer the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.

ED, Belsimtek and Leatherneck haven't missed a step so far, so I'm happy to keep pre-ordering things like the L-39 and Nevada.

Razbam are new to DCS and I like what I've been seeing of the Mirage 2000, so I've pre-ordered that, too.

On the flip side, I haven't pre-ordered the VEAO P-40 as I felt really disappointed by the Hawk.

Unfortunately, I'd have to wait on anything from AvioDev, too. I still believe the C-101 has the seeds of something really good, though. Everything that's been put into it so far is really good, but it just doesn't feel finished yet without the EFM.

I'm the same in terms of wanting some more info about project status, but I've haven't let it dampen my enthusiasm. My general take is that I'm giving each developer the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.

 

ED, Belsimtek and Leatherneck haven't missed a step so far, so I'm happy to keep pre-ordering things like the L-39 and Nevada.

 

Razbam are new to DCS and I like what I've been seeing of the Mirage 2000, so I've pre-ordered that, too.

 

On the flip side, I haven't pre-ordered the VEAO P-40 as I felt really disappointed by the Hawk.

 

Unfortunately, I'd have to wait on anything from AvioDev, too. I still believe the C-101 has the seeds of something really good, though. Everything that's been put into it so far is really good, but it just doesn't feel finished yet without the EFM.

You're absolutely right and I know it's not really fair to ED and Razbam that are showing steady progress and solid updates regularly. I trust them to release solid product and will definitely buy the L-39, the Nevada Map and the M2000C once they're complete, but I'm not taking any chances anymore, I don't mind waiting a year or two, ironically. :)

But hey, maybe AVIODEV will surprise us all this month with an improved C-101, the CC and the EFM.

I bought this on flash sale a few months ago knowing full well this could happen. Since i payed like 15 dollars for it i'm not too fussed about it really but i do view it as a mistake. A mistake i won't make a second time. Never paying for SFM again.

This isnt meant as an insult towards the devs it's just my story. From what i've seen here and on the Hawk forums there's a lot of people who seem to have gotten burned by their pre order, some taking it worse then others.

I bought this on flash sale a few months ago knowing full well this could happen. Since i payed like 15 dollars for it i'm not too fussed about it really but i do view it as a mistake. A mistake i won't make a second time. Never paying for SFM again.

 

This isnt meant as an insult towards the devs it's just my story. From what i've seen here and on the Hawk forums there's a lot of people who seem to have gotten burned by their pre order, some taking it worse then others.

I paid full price, and honestly it's not that I am even pissed about not having the finished product (although 9 months ago I certainly would have expected us to be close by now) I just want some communication to the devs customers! Vague statements about team problems and such make us all nervous, and just shedding some light on things is all I ask.

As far as the hawk forums... Well not to go off topic but that whole situation has been compounded by what I think are poor decisions by the devs, like failing to recognize why they had some angry customers. It is what it is, at least Ells and Pman are actively posting!

While I too paid full (well, pre-order) price for the C-101 and was expecting at least the AFM for the EB by now, as a counter point, I'd like to just remind everyone we are getting two aircraft which do have some not insignificant differences, and ED wouldn't have let AvioDev sell their product if they were not confident it would be finished.

I'm sure it'll be finished eventually.

I paid full price, and honestly it's not that I am even pissed about not having the finished product (although 9 months ago I certainly would have expected us to be close by now) I just want some communication to the devs customers! Vague statements about team problems and such make us all nervous, and just shedding some light on things is all I ask.

 

As far as the hawk forums... Well not to go off topic but that whole situation has been compounded by what I think are poor decisions by the devs, like failing to recognize why they had some angry customers. It is what it is, at least Ells and Pman are actively posting!

And it was just this sort of tone that causes such ill feeling between us and the devs. I don't see anywhere in the sales agreement between us and Aviodev that they'd work to your deadlines or terms and conditions. Did I miss that bit?

What they choose to tell us and not tell us is not your concern. They are nascent businesses that rely on part time work from staff who are more likely than not getting very little or no remuneration for their efforts. I'd think the very least we could do is cut them some slack while they get on with their Herculean tasks. Let's stay positive, and support them, not slate them. Especially when we have no idea whatsoever what is involved in writing the code for advanced flight modelling, or missile behaviour.

Just exactly when will everyone start to treat devs as human beings and not mindless automata? How long before you'd get a Glasgow handshake if you'd said stuff like this to a guy you just met in a pub? Take off your internet armour, and show some consideration!

And it was just this sort of tone that causes such ill feeling between us and the devs. I don't see anywhere in the sales agreement between us and Aviodev that they'd work to your deadlines or terms and conditions. Did I miss that bit?

 

What they choose to tell us and not tell us is not your concern. They are nascent businesses that rely on part time work from staff who are more likely than not getting very little or no remuneration for their efforts. I'd think the very least we could do is cut them some slack while they get on with their Herculean tasks. Let's stay positive, and support them, not slate them. Especially when we have no idea whatsoever what is involved in writing the code for advanced flight modelling, or missile behaviour.

 

Just exactly when will everyone start to treat devs as human beings and not mindless automata? How long before you'd get a Glasgow handshake if you'd said stuff like this to a guy you just met in a pub? Take off your internet armour, and show some consideration!

Sorry Neil, but this kind of attitude is also(!) responsible for threads of this kind going out of proportion... See, now I (and maybe others?) feel the need to defend their position ... and thus attributing to the "vocal minority" that make it look like everyone is impatient, angry and mad at the devs although all I want is just a tiny bit of communication.

So far, nobody here is slautering the devs, treating them inhumanely or is inconsiderate, as far as I can see.

But the "sales agreement" we feel the devs should adhere to is just a something I would call "usual business terms", terms that seem to have been established over the years here. That means, yes, it is all beta and not complete yet, but also, yes, they are actively working on it. Yes, it usually takes long(er), but when that happens, just tell us.

Of course it is up to the devs if or what they communicate. But actually it IS our concern if they do not adress, well, our concerns.

What would be a fair time span when we may start to shuffle our feet nervously? If it were, let's say, an F/A-18C - yeah, months or even years without new information would be ok(ish ;-) - as it is just still an (internal) project. But our case is different: the product is already _released_ and people payed for it. Why am I inconsiderate when I wonder when it will be in a usable state?

Up until about a month ago, I wasn't stressing out too much about this and was completely fine with seeing a 2016 gold release. However, given the recent comments about internal problems, something from the devs would be nice to assuage my uneasiness.

I accept what you say Flagrum, I just see the same posts over and over again. If Aviodev have internal problems, then making any kind of announcement may compromise the people concerned, and therefore would be confidential, privileged information that not a single member of the forum has any entitlement to be privy to.

And why shouldn't there be a backlash against the negative image that this forum is starting to make it's hallmark in the eyes of developers? There is every reason to defend their position when they are too professional to do so themselves.

And it was just this sort of tone that causes such ill feeling between us and the devs. I don't see anywhere in the sales agreement between us and Aviodev that they'd work to your deadlines or terms and conditions. Did I miss that bit?

 

What they choose to tell us and not tell us is not your concern. They are nascent businesses that rely on part time work from staff who are more likely than not getting very little or no remuneration for their efforts. I'd think the very least we could do is cut them some slack while they get on with their Herculean tasks. Let's stay positive, and support them, not slate them. Especially when we have no idea whatsoever what is involved in writing the code for advanced flight modelling, or missile behaviour.

 

Just exactly when will everyone start to treat devs as human beings and not mindless automata? How long before you'd get a Glasgow handshake if you'd said stuff like this to a guy you just met in a pub? Take off your internet armour, and show some consideration!

This seems like a bizarrely disproportionate response to Ramsey's post.

I could imagine jumping to the developer's defence if there was profanity, abuse or anger in the original post, but that's not what was said at all. As far as I can tell, Ramsey's post basically just said "I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that this is taking so long. It'd be great to get a little more in the way of regular updates."

That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request from a paying customer. It doesn't matter if you're a one-man outfit or a multinational corporation - if you're selling a product, there are certain obligations and expectations that come with that.

The "It's still a Beta and therefore not finished" argument is somewhat valid (even though I take great issue with ED's definition of Beta), but it doesn't feel in any way unreasonable for a paying customer to expect a modest cadence of updates regarding the progress of their purchase towards its final form. In the absence of such communication, there's bound to be some measure of frustration. As long as its kept objective and civil, that's entirely reasonable.

The assertion that requests for such info would result in a "Glasgow handshake" in real life is frankly ridiculous.

If you went to a restaurant and ordered curry, rice and naan, but the rice didn't arrive, you'd want to know when... especially when minutes are stretching to hours. Vague comments to the effect of "We'll get it to you sometime" aren't particularly satisfying while you're watching the rest of the dish go cold. :D

For what it's worth, I take issue with attacks on developers, too. I've been making video games for nearly 20 years and I know exactly how frustrating, deflating and unfair that can be. On the flip side, I also believe that paying customers have a right to the product they've paid for. If that hasn't been delivered, I also believe that those same paying customers have a right to expect a modest amount of communication on progress.

Read back further. I would also like to point out that Aviodev do give updates. Also, where is the paragraph in the EULA you all agreed to that stated the module would reach full release status within 9 months?

If other devs can take far far longer to take their modules out of Beta, then why is Aviodev coming in for this unwarranted criticism?

The Glasgow handshake remark was aimed at everyone who sits back and uses the internet as an excuse to make remarks they never would to someone's face. Maybe the attitude comes across badly online, but sometimes I despair of the way people feel they can act when they have the protection of anonymity. And trust me, in some Glasgow pubs not too many years ago, you could have received a "handshake" for simply breathing!

You really consider a curry to be the same animal as a complex piece of computer software, that has to plug in to someone else's platform? Also, when you paid for the curry, were you told that the side order of tarka daal would be delivered once the lentil tree had been planted?

No one who bought the pre-release C101 could have been in any doubt that further development work needed to be completed, and that the early release was as much down to the demands of the community in getting hold of it early as well as the desire for a cash stream. There is always a discount to anyone who buys early, and guess why they provide that?

I can understand if people stop buying early release stuff if they're dissatisfied, but that is a whole lot different to making demands knowing that you are buying an incomplete module with no fixed date for the final release to materialise.

You simply cannot have your cake and eat it. If you went up to the pub landlord in the said Glaswegian hostelry and said Oi mate where are my chips, I ordered them 10 minutes ago and frankly I think you should be communicating with your customers and telling them minute by minute when they'll be getting them, I suspect said landlord might not see things your way. In fact, there is a good chance you might not get the kind of response you anticipate.

As a footnote here, please don't be offended if you are a Glaswegian. I wouldn't suggest that anyone there is particularly violent or inhospitable.

9 months and no (visible) progress from our customers perspective (ok, lets say 8 - there were some updates in the beginning)? For a product that is not just "not finished", but less than 50% functional (no AFM, no CC variant). That is at least not the average timeline for other modules and that is probably why people, including me, start wondering.

Darn, see? Now, reiterating the situation, I sound much more disappointed that I actually am. All I wanted was to ask a question, not to crucify anyone ... :o(

edit:

Having to explain why I feel the way I feel - that looks like I try to "rub it in", drawing all the attention to what went wrong, etc. That is why I don't like threads like this, that is why I initially just simply asked a polite and imo reasonable question. Thread progresses (is that a word?) like this makes even that difficult... *blargh*

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=142533

Last update was July, so I don't accept at all that there has been very little visible progress when they showed a lot of images of the project with that update.

Sorry, but the last update was on August 11

https://www.facebook.com/Aviodev?fref=nf

Ok touche, I correct myself: progress that reached our DCS installation directory.

Yes, they did and do communicate with us. If they now communicate with us about when they think the product will be in a "beta worthy state" (i.e. all major components functional at least, bugs and minor missing features aside) ... that would be all I want. :o)

Darn, see? Now, reiterating the situation, I sound much more disappointed that I actually am. All I wanted was to ask a question, not to crucify anyone ... :o(

Exactly. It digresses.

That's why I try not to get into such exchanges, a lot of people can't understand that it's about sharing your point of view and opinions. That it's not about trying hard to change people's mind and make them understand your way of seeing things is the only right one that should be treated as facts.

I understand people like NeilWillis that are 100% happy with the situation and feel such concerns and critics absolutely invalid and uncalled for, that's not how I see things, not even close, but I respect that point of view nonetheless. I hope it works both ways.

Also, where is the paragraph in the EULA you all agreed to that stated the module would reach full release status within 9 months?

No one ever claimed it would be done within 9 months of release. Not sure why you're trying to put words in people's mouths.

That said, there's always going to be some measure of expectation. Would you expect it to take a year? Two years? Five? A quarter of a century?

There has to be some kind of finite bound on the delivery date. In the absence of specific projections, everyone is going to have their own perspective and expectations.

If other devs can take far far longer to take their modules out of Beta, then why is Aviodev coming in for this unwarranted criticism?

Any dev that's taken a long time to deliver has come under criticism (cf. Belsimtek and VEAO). It's not unique to AvioDev in the slightest. Whether or not it's unwarranted is totally subjective.

The Glasgow handshake remark was aimed at everyone who sits back and uses the internet as an excuse to make remarks they never would to someone's face.

I would totally accept this if were people were being hostile and abusive in this thread, but that's not what's happening here. You seem to be getting stressed about the idea that people simply want information.

You really consider a curry to be the same animal as a complex piece of computer software, that has to plug in to someone else's platform? Also, when you paid for the curry, were you told that the side order of tarka daal would be delivered once the lentil tree had been planted?

Yes... after 20 years of software development, I consider the creation of a complex piece of computer software to be 100% analogous to purchasing a curry. :doh:

You know as well as I do that analogies are not intended to show that two things are the same. They're just a way of reframing a discussion point by using a well-understood concept to illustrate specific commonalities. Taking the analogy literally in order to make cheap "you must be an idiot if you think these two things are the same" attacks represents the exact same kind of negative internet behaviour you're claiming to stand against.

My point, which I feel was perfectly clear, was simply that only a certain amount of time can reasonably be expected to pass between a purchase and the delivery of that purchase before people start asking questions.

Once again, subjectivity is involved in the assessment of what constitutes a "reasonable amount of time".

You simply cannot have your cake and eat it. If you went up to the pub landlord in the said Glaswegian hostelry and said Oi mate where are my chips, I ordered them 10 minutes ago and frankly I think you should be communicating with your customers and telling them minute by minute when they'll be getting them

It's a question of equivalency. Did you order your chips a minute ago? Half an hour ago? Three hours ago?

Which analogy is the most applicable?

Once more, it's all very subjective.

As a footnote here, please don't be offended if you are a Glaswegian. I wouldn't suggest that anyone there is particularly violent or inhospitable.

I'm not a Glaswegian.

It's far worse than that. I'm a Scouser.

Exactly. It digresses.

 

That's why I try not to get into such exchanges, a lot of people can't understand that it's about sharing your point of view and opinions. That it's not about trying hard to change people's mind and make them understand your way of seeing things is the only right one that should be treated as facts.

 

I understand people like NeilWillis that are 100% happy with the situation and feel such concerns and critics absolutely invalid and uncalled for, that's not how I see things, not even close, but I respect that point of view nonetheless. I hope it works both ways.

This right here ^^^^^

Honestly, NeilWillis, you aren't making much sense with blind accusations of me not treating the devs like humans, or somewhat ridiculous comparisons to ordering chips. We don't need more blind defense of devs dragging this thread into a flame war and/or off topic. If your satisfied with your product and/or the amount of communication from Aviodev, I'm happy for you. Wonderful. I respect your opinion and won't try to make you change it, as my message in this thread is for the devs, not you. That being said, the majority of posters in this thread DO NOT share your opinion, and you should respect that and our right to express it. Maybe after 5-10 pages of this, Aviodev will realize a response to our concern would go a long way towards easing it.

I won't digress into semantically motivated debates about the how and why with you anymore, let's leave it alone. My opinion is stated, and I eagerly await some type of word from Aviodev about a jet I care much about!

EDIT: for those who says threads and posts like this never get anything done, please note the press release that just came out. It's important the devs hear our feedback even if it's not always good.

EDIT: for those who says threads and posts like this never get anything done, please note the press release that just came out. It's important the devs hear our feedback even if it's not always good.

^+1

I'm glad they finally told us something but disappointed at the content. Personally I wish people would stop sticking up for devs altogether. If there's verbal abuse or something of the like there are tools already in place to punish that person. There's really no need for the community to "stick up for them."

And I'm tired of people using the "but it's hard to develop a game" response. Business is hard...life is hard. You get paid for the work you do...the value you add to your customer's lives. That's why you get paid minimum wage working at a fast food place and hundreds of thousands of dollars if you're the President of the US. Nobody made AvioDev decide to get into this business so nobody has the right to chastise those who demand a product for the money they've spent (or at the bare minimum, communication).

And, off topic, but this thread exemplifies the problems with pre-sales, alphas/betas, etc. I long for the days of going to the store, buying a game off the shelf, and then actually owning and playing said game. Done.

Yeah, and probably get a buggy game and no patches at all. Good times.... ;)

No seriously, I don't think there is something wrong with just being a friendly person and supporting the devs by talking about the positive things. They know we are disappointed, they know we spent money on their product, and they will do their best. Reading positive feedback helps them to not become like **** and thinking that there are only ******* in the community. Because that sucks. It harms those of us who aren't ******.

EDIT: Corrected the angry words.

EDIT: ...and the name calling. You know who I mean I guess.

^+1

 

I'm glad they finally told us something but disappointed at the content. Personally I wish people would stop sticking up for devs altogether. If there's verbal abuse or something of the like there are tools already in place to punish that person. There's really no need for the community to "stick up for them."

 

And I'm tired of people using the "but it's hard to develop a game" response. Business is hard...life is hard. You get paid for the work you do...the value you add to your customer's lives. That's why you get paid minimum wage working at a fast food place and hundreds of thousands of dollars if you're the President of the US. Nobody made AvioDev decide to get into this business so nobody has the right to chastise those who demand a product for the money they've spent (or at the bare minimum, communication).

 

And, off topic, but this thread exemplifies the problems with pre-sales, alphas/betas, etc. I long for the days of going to the store, buying a game off the shelf, and then actually owning and playing said game. Done.

Very very true. I'm weary of forum members putting up sob story posts about how hard it is. Lots of things in life are hard. My job is hard. . . Aviodev took money with a promise to complete a product and the community is not at all off base by keeping them accountable or wanting updates. No one is being disrespectful here.

I also agree that the content of the update left something to be desired... I feel like it said a lot but didn't really tell us too much if you follow me.

Yes, as long as it's done with respect, in a constructive manner and not spammed around at every occasion, there's nothing wrong with criticism.

Some people will see it as offensive and disrespectful while others won't, it's all very subjective.

I agree with you Aginor, there's nothing wrong with supporting the devs and being friendly. That doesn't mean we should all purposefully hide ourselves in delusion that closing our eyes, waiting and being overly kind to anyone would resolve everything. They're grown ups, they're professionals, they can handle it.

As a result of these past few weeks talks we all got a response from the devs, it's yet another excuse letter than the project is still at a stall and various issues prevents the projects from going forward. It's reassuring to know they're as disappointed and as frustrated as us, if not more. That's not what we wanted to hear but at least they're being honest about it.

These last couple of weeks talks have been a bit more vigorous about the delays and the various related concerns. Maybe it's a direct result of it or maybe not, but the fact is that a few days ago the devs "decided to set a new heading and make a change on team, so [they] can change the frustration and concerns for hope and motivation. So progress has start again, and [they] can put all [their] concentration on the right way.".

It looks like they're finally moving forward with development as of last week, it doesn't mean it should alleviate any concerns but if truly what they say is already effective and not just wishful thinking on their end then it's progress that is worth praising.

The simple moral of the lesson here is this...

If you don't like the delays, stay away from beta purchases. You don't need to tie up your vast fortunes in modules if you're not happy. But if you choose to go down that route, take it from me, you'll wait, and eventually you'll get what you paid for.

And, if you walk into a pre-sale not expecting delays, then good bl@@dy luck to you, your naivety speaks volumes!!!

Also, on the subject of getting paid, just remember that both Aviodev, and several other developers are working from their homes AFTER they complete their day's work. They develop these modules for a lot of other reasons than simply commercial gain. THAT's why we all need to cut them a little slack, and understand when they experience delays and other issues. It has happened more often that not that unexpected hurdles are encountered, and even the best will in the world cannot cope with that.

Just cast your minds back to the problems faced by a number of other developers. The MiG-21Bis took a long long time to arrive, but it did arrive. It sets new standards, and is still being refined further.

Sometimes it takes years to get a product to market. We have the C101, we just don't have it finished. we also don't have the UH-1H, the MiG-15Bis, the MiG-21Bis, the Mi-8MTV2, The Hawk, DCS World 2.0, Bf-109K4 MiG-29 or SU-27 finished yet.

Ask yourselves how much more you'd have to complain about if they held them back altogether until they were full release versions. At least the Beta release system gives us early access, and no one ever told you when you entered into the EULA contract with any of them the deadlines for completion.

What exactly constitutes a fair delay and an unfair one? Why should developers be under any obligation to keep everyone informed of progress, or provide any information at all? No one forced you to buy into the development phase of things, and any one of you complaining would be very hypocritical indeed if you now go ahead and enter into similar arrangements with forthcoming projects.

Finally, what makes you imagine for a moment you are in a majority here at all? The majority don't post anything at all. Just because you make a lot of noise doesn't make you either the majority, or correct in what you suggest.

Don't pay, and then you'll be perfectly content I am sure! Except of course I bet the majority of you have pre-purchased other stuff despite what you have all experienced both here, and in the past with other developers. I'm not soft on anyone, just realistic, and I am sorry to say, you all need to just get real. Some of you seem to have very short memories if you have followed DCS World since the beginning.

You should probably take a deep breath and re-read the posts in this thread.

• No one is saying that delays shouldn't happen.
  
• No one is saying that AvioDev are unique in their situation.
  
• No one is claiming to be a majority.
  

This appears to be a "hot button" topic for you, with the result that you seem to be randomly attacking people based on the prejudices and preconceptions that you're bringing to the table as opposed to what's actually being said.

If people pay for something - pre-sale or not - they are invested in it. That means that there is an expectation of updates on the progress of that purchase. It's entirely up to the company in question to decide how communicative they wish to be, but for every action (or inaction) there's an equal and opposite reaction.

AvioDev can choose to be silent and that's fine - that's their choice - but it would be naive and unreasonable to assume that paying customers aren't going to have opinions on that silence. People are quite naturally going to ask for progress updates, and there's zero harm in that if it's done politely. (Note, too, the exclusively reasonable, positive and supportive posts in response to the September Press Release update).

It's not clear to me why this is so problematic for you and why you're taking such a needlessly patronising and passive-aggressive tone.