1.5.7 and "Joysticks without spring and FFB" trim mode

1. Go to the options, click on Special tab. Select Ka-50 from the list on the left.

2. Click on the dropdown for Trimmer Mode.

3. Select "Center Position Trimmer Mode".

 

Ahh, thanks. I was looking for the special tab but didn't see it.

:doh:

.......

 

....... There's not much point in using the Flight Director because the trim button does the same thing.

 

.......

 

 

Your statements were correct until you wrote the above. FD mode is not the same as trimming, retrimming or holding the trim button pressed.

 

FD is far more than that and it takes a lot of flying, observation and rethinking why what and how the Ka is operated.

 

FD mode blends the selected AP channels into your "working the controls". Enable/disable Heading or Altitude channel for example and observe how "she" behaves differently. You cannot achieve the same behaviour with Trim button actions...at least not that I figured it out

FD mode blends the selected AP channels into your "working the controls". Enable/disable Heading or Altitude channel for example and observe how "she" behaves differently. You cannot achieve the same behaviour with Trim button actions...at least not that I figured it out

 

The AP channels enable two functions: a dampening system which dampens the pilot's controls to minimize pilot-induced oscillations, and a stabilization system that attempts to hold the helicopter at the last trimmed position. Flight Director disables the stabilization system, but leaves the dampening system on. From page 10-24 of the manual (page 360 if you're viewing the PDF version):

 

http://server.3rd-wing.net/public/Manuels%20DCS/DCS%20BS2%20Flight%20Manual%20EN.pdf

 

To disengage the automatic mode and enable director control, it is necessary to press the

“ДИР УПР” (FLT DIR) push-light on the Autopilot panel. By disengaging automatic

control, the automatic angular stabilization is disabled but damping remains for all

channels.

 

The trim button will do the same thing while it's held down, but will additionally disable force trim as well. From page 6-6 in the manual (PDF page 80):

 

“ТРИММЕР” (Trimmer) button – Cancels all force on cyclic with the trimming

mechanisms. When released, the autopilot will stabilize current angles of pitch,

bank and yaw

 

and page 13-30 (PDF page 480):

 

Pressing the “ТРИММЕР” (TRIM) button on the cyclic stick cancels the autopilot’s

position signals for bank (K), pitch (T) and yaw (H) and releasing it places the angular

position of the helicopter in 3D space in memory.

 

Without force feedback, force trim doesn't do anything, so the trim button and Flight Director end up doing the same thing: disabling the bank/pitch/heading hold, but leaving the dampening system on. As long as the AP channels are on, the dampening system will always be on (barring a system failure). If you turn on Flight Director and turn off the AP channels, the helicopter's behavior will change because you've disabled the dampening system.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Ranma13

So, back to the original subject, "Joystick without spring and FFB"...:music_whistling:

 

I have now done some testing myself, with both trim techniques.

"Joystick without spring and FFB" do work the way I described here, actually the same as Ranma13 described it here but with different words and perspective. I have been forced to hold the stick as steady as possible in the trim position since I do not have friction enough to let go.

 

It does appear to be bugged though! :joystick:

 

I will elaborate soon but first some important things to remember, some has already been mentioned already, just repeating it here:

1) The actual trimming is occurring when RELEASING the button, no mater

trim technique.

2) When trimming (i.e. releasing button) it's crucial to have stabilized before trimming. When trimming the autopilot uses the helicopter orientation in 3D space as reference, not cyclic position. If you move the stick and trim before the helicopter has settled in the corresponding attitude, you'll get in trouble!

3) Both trim techniques are supposed to work, shall only be personal preferences.

 

 

 

Test with technique "Attitude-Click"

"Attitude-Click" is when you first change the attitude of your helicopter and when stabilized press-n-release the trim button. Trim shall be done frequently!

It is important to trim at a stable hover before liftoff. Gets a little bit jumpy otherwise, but possible to correct.

My experience is that it does work as intended, It appears it does nothing, but it actually do "program" the AP. That can most easily be seen when having next way-point at either side of you and activating "Automatic Flight Mode". The helicopter makes a turn towards it and then return to the same attitude as when last trimming, all without moving the stick.

But I can see some issues:

When releasing trim button the nose do a small jump but quickly returns to trimmed position. It doesn't seem to matter if I constantly click the button while changing attitude or fulfill the attitude change and click ones.

I successfully flew a mission using this technique though.

 

Test with technique "Press-Attitude-Release"

"Press-Attitude-Release" is when you start by press and hold the trim, then change attitude, when stabilized you release the button. This is my preferred technique, the one I have been using for many years now (with return to center). Unfortunately the trim appears to be bugged some strange way making "Attitude-Click" work but "Press-Attitude-Release" not.

What happens (to me, and as I understand it to OP as well) is this:

I press the button and change attitude, when releasing my nose makes a rather big jump, similar to how foxtheancient (OP) describes it, and does not return to trim attitude!

Trying to counteract it with cyclic input with trim makes it jump again.

If I then counteract it with cyclic input without trim and stabilize as intended, I can activate "Automatic Flight Mode" and it fly as planed. But deactivating "Automatic Flight Mode" then press and hold the trim, my nose makes another jump similar as the one before but opposite direction.

I relay can not use "Press-Attitude-Release" when having "Joystick without spring and FFB" enabled.:(

 

 

I believe it's a bug making "Press-Attitude-Release" not usable with "Joystick without spring and FFB" enabled, but if someone has a confirmed way to make it work I'm eager to listen.

Is it possible for you to make a video showing the behavior you're seeing with the trim, and with the input viewer displayed (press Right Ctrl + Enter)?

Been flying since BS1 but have never made a video. Don't have any software for it either, if it's not natively supported by DCSW.

But I'll look into it next time I get the opportunity to enter my cockpit (to seldom nowadays)

For joystick user with Warthog Hotas I recommend Central Timmer Mode. Less oscillation, smoother inputs.

I'm using a Saitek X-55, with the lightest spring I have, and I definitely follow the "hold the trimmer" school of flying. This has been an informative thread, now all the various advice I've seen makes sense. And it makes me want to try flying with a FFB stick some day! So I guess the short version is:

 

1. If you have a stick w/ spring, hold the trimmer!

2. If you have a FFB stick, tap the trimmer!

 

Do I have it right?

Yep, that's correct. If you have a FFB stick, you'll notice right away why holding the trimmer is not a good idea: the entire joystick goes limp.

I use a FFB stick with Simffb with friction & damping effects separated from trim spring forces so it doesn't go limp when depressing trim (what I assume real stick does as well) and I use both methods all the time.

 

Click trimming when flying stable with minor stick deflection and depressing button in transient conditions to prevent over swinging.

I don't have that controls indicator on in this video but you can hear the trim button pretty well being depressed mostly.

HYXwfkdSfRQ

In the real helicopter, if you hold down the trim button, the force is removed. The difference with using simFFB is that it's using 3 different forces: spring, damper, and friction. When you hold down the trim button, the spring force is removed, but the damper and friction forces still remain. DCS only uses the spring force, so holding down the trim button will remove all force on the stick.

I use a FFB stick with Simffb with friction & damping effects separated from trim spring forces so it doesn't go limp when depressing trim (what I assume real stick does as well) and I use both methods all the time.

 

Click trimming when flying stable with minor stick deflection and depressing button in transient conditions to prevent over swinging.

I don't have that controls indicator on in this video but you can hear the trim button pretty well being depressed mostly.

 

can you post your simFFB settings? thanks

can you post your simFFB settings? thanks

 

:helpsmilie:thanks, I have a MSFFB2

Sorry...but i don't understand how this program work.

I want to have the trim with g940 and dcs aircraft...but i don't understand how a single button (i can only select a key press and not 2 or 4 like a trim hat) can manage the trim.

Can someone explain this?

Sorry...but i don't understand how this program work.

I want to have the trim with g940 and dcs aircraft...but i don't understand how a single button (i can only select a key press and not 2 or 4 like a trim hat) can manage the trim.

Can someone explain this?

It's not as some other aircraft where you adjust your trim with the hat. You simply use the trim button to tell the aircraft where you want the relaxed (i.e. no spring forces) position of your cyclic to be, and to send controller data to the autopilot. To adjust, you do it with your controllers and retrim. How to actually perform the trim has been debated endlessly since the dawn of Black Shark 1. You can find numerous threads about different methods you can try, and ther is always people promoting one or the other as "the best", but in the end it's all about personal preferences.

1.5.7 and "Joysticks without spring and FFB" trim mode

 

Sorry but i am not talking about helicopters...I don’t own any of them.

i am asking about the simffb program regarding g940 and aircraft like the Hornet.

Excuse me, now i saw that this is a blackshark 2 thread. But it showed up only because i searched for simffb and trim as i am looking for a way to have the stick move with the trim like with other aircraft

Edited December 19, 2018 by VirusAM

...

Happens the best of us ;-)

I'm basically a helicopter exclusive pilot with the Viggen as the only exception. And I don't use a FFB. So I can offer little help. Good luck though.