Dee-Jay Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Hi! Does the F-16 warn you when you put the CAT in the wrong position? I know the aircraft is still WIP. That's why I'm asking. Thank you! Yep. it should through the "Caution Panel" => "STORES CONFIG" light. Regards. ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Compared to the other F16 sim, the DCS F16 seems very slow to roll in CAT III. Wonder which is more realistic. At this time, there doesn't seem to be any point in flying with CAT III I don't have the figure yet under the eyes .... but something you can try to start with, is to check the relation between CATI and CATIII ... In CATI, maximum roll rate is commanded when: - AOA <15° - Airspeed > 250 knots ... note the roll rate you have in those conditions on a level flight (maybe TacView telemetry may help? ... but a stopwatch could also be enough.) Then switch into CATIII, in the same AOA and airspeed conditions, resulting roll rate should be approximatively 60% of the CATI max roll rate. It doesn't mean that CATI max roll rate is correct, but at least (if my understandings are correct) you can check that relationship between CATI & III are rather accurate. But to be honest, I would rather ask a good friend about it who worked a lot on that subject ... I am a pilot, not an engineer. Regards. ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) We have the no-kidding rate charts for CAT III and they match. Thanks ... Had few minutes free, so I did the test. Track is available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/phe2yckgp0xgq3z/Tacview-20191201-220944-DCS-F-16C%20-%20Caucasus%20-%20Takeoff.zip.rar?dl=0 Do not hesitate to do it on your side to confirm or invalidate my results. - Starting the Quick Start , "Takeoff" mission. - Ask Crew Chief to set my a/c empty (no loadout, full internal fuel). - Taking off, and fly 5000ft/MSL to do the test between 450-500KCAS. Stating a very gentle climb to compensate the resulting nose down attitude after the roll competed, stop pitch motion, then initial full roll deflection with no pitch inputs. - Not counting the first 360° to let the roll rate properly establish at its max rate. - Then count two complete 360° Two set up in CAT I and two set up in CAT III. CAT I : I count about 3s to perform 2x360° => 720/3 = 240°/s CAT III : I count about 8s to perform 2x360° => 720/8 = 90°/s TacView telemetry is giving roughly the same result by sowing a 215-225°/s during CATI set up. And 90°/s during CAT III set up. (TacVew may be not 100% either, at least, it is not on all sims). ... NASA model don't include any CAT III evaluations, so I don't know which charts are mentioned (?) But to me, considering the -1, the described relationship between CAT I or III, we are not within the 40% of RRT reduction given by the -1. ... I also did the same test in landing gain* by using the Man Flap Ext**. Results gives a higher RRT than in cruise gain in CAT III. Something around 120°/s. (?) ... ... *** Note also that I had a huge pitch LCO (bug I guess?) with flaps manually extended around 700KCAS**. Regards. * EDIT: LG gain should be triggered by the LG handle down position rather than the landing gear position itself , and lollipop should lite on as soon as any of the LG doors are not closed and locked (not just when main MLG is in transfer). ** Manual flaps extension should not be possible above a given airspeed (don't have the figures in mind, I don't think it is a fixed value , rather a curve or a linear function.) But for sure, manual extension at +400 - 700KCAS should not be possible. *** ... enough for today, I have to go to sleep. Cheers. Edited December 2, 2019 by Dee-Jay ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorBrasil Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Hi! Yep. it should through the "Caution Panel" => "STORES CONFIG" light. Regards. Thank You! :thumbup: |Motherboard|: Asus TUF Gaming X570-PLUS, |WaterCooler|: Corsair H115i Pro, |CPU|: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X, |RAM|: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3200MHz DDR4, |SSD|: Kingston A2000 500GB M.2 NVMe, |SSD|: Kingston 2.5´ 480GB UV400 SATA III, |SSHD|: Seagate Híbrido 2TB 7200RPM SATA III, |GPU|: MSI Gaming 980Ti, |Monitor|: LG UltraWide 34UM68, |Joystick 1|: Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog, |Joystick 2|: T.Flight Rudder Pedals, |Head Motion|: TrackIr 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
function129 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 We have the no-kidding rate charts for CAT III and they match. Thanks With all due respect, they do not match and the DCS Viper has a slow roll rate by ~69%. I'd expect to see closer to that ~169 degree roll rate in the CT2 config CAT III in the game but last night tried her out and certainly did not. I suggest reevaluating the CAT III roll rate parameters for DCS. For the dudes playing DCS, you dont have to worry about over-G on your bombs and stuff so just leave the switch CAT I and dont worry about it. I'd rather them get everything in the ICP functional and just fly the jet CAT I in DCS with a full bomb load. The benefit of the game is, its a game and you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Wags Posted December 1, 2019 ED Team Share Posted December 1, 2019 With all due respect, they do not match and the DCS Viper has a slow roll rate by ~69%. I'd expect to see closer to that ~169 degree roll rate in the CT2 config CAT III in the game but last night tried her out and certainly did not. I suggest reevaluating the CAT III roll rate parameters for DCS. For the dudes playing DCS, you dont have to worry about over-G on your bombs and stuff so just leave the switch CAT I and dont worry about it. I'd rather them get everything in the ICP functional and just fly the jet CAT I in DCS with a full bomb load. The benefit of the game is, its a game and you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP. I've asked our project lead to re-examine. Thanks Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt Twitch: wagmatt System: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3729544#post3729544 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofEil Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) The benefit of the game is, its a game and you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP. Sorry, but that’s the primary reason I’m here. My expectation is that ED model overspeed/overweight/over G effects and the limitations various loadouts place on an aircraft. Such things are integral to a full fidelity simulation. Yes, currently you can fly around in Cat I without a care in the world, but you shouldn’t be able to (WIP I hope). There are much better games out there if I just wanted to *pew pew* all over the sky without worrying about aerodynamic loads, cockpit setup, or stores configurations. Edited December 2, 2019 by SonofEil 1 i7 7700K @5.0, 1080Ti, 32GB DDR4, HMD Odyssey, TM WH, Crosswind Rudder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diditopgun Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 I've asked our project lead to re-examine. Thanks Hello Wags ! Any news about that primary subject ? Thanks. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel I7 8700K / RTX 3080 / 32Go DDR4 PC21300 G.Skill Ripjaws V / MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon / Cooler Master Silent Pro Gold - 1000W / Noctua NH-D14 / Acer XB270HUDbmiprz 27" G-synch 144Hz / SSD Samsung 860EVO 250Go + 1To / Cooler Master HAF X / Warthog+VPC WarBRD / Thrustmaster TPR / Track-IR v5 + Track Clip Pro / Windows 11 64bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=52d= Skip Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 ... you dont have to worry about ops limits, otherwise the majority of DCS players would be overspeeding their tanks and TGP. At what speed would that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diditopgun Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Hi ! Any news on the CATIII roll rate ? We are still stuck at about -60% roll rate reduction between CATI and CATIII instead of -40% (as per Dash-1). :joystick: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel I7 8700K / RTX 3080 / 32Go DDR4 PC21300 G.Skill Ripjaws V / MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon / Cooler Master Silent Pro Gold - 1000W / Noctua NH-D14 / Acer XB270HUDbmiprz 27" G-synch 144Hz / SSD Samsung 860EVO 250Go + 1To / Cooler Master HAF X / Warthog+VPC WarBRD / Thrustmaster TPR / Track-IR v5 + Track Clip Pro / Windows 11 64bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Wiggy== Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 It's not a solid 40%. It's starts at 40% and then reduces further depending on speed, AoA and tailplane position. Cheers, Rick CSEL\CMEL\IFR Certified Airplane Nut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diditopgun Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Have you reached -40% in game ? My yesterday test: Level flight, 470knt IAS 6500ft, only full roll applied: CATI=~225°/s CATIII=~90°/s --> -60% Level flight, 300knt IAS 6500ft, only full roll applied: CATI=~180°/s CATIII=~73°/s --> -60% [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel I7 8700K / RTX 3080 / 32Go DDR4 PC21300 G.Skill Ripjaws V / MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon / Cooler Master Silent Pro Gold - 1000W / Noctua NH-D14 / Acer XB270HUDbmiprz 27" G-synch 144Hz / SSD Samsung 860EVO 250Go + 1To / Cooler Master HAF X / Warthog+VPC WarBRD / Thrustmaster TPR / Track-IR v5 + Track Clip Pro / Windows 11 64bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxTwo Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment? Also the aircraft pitches down after putting the gear up during takeoff in cat 3 I didn't notice that in cat 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recon21288 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment? Also the aircraft pitches down after putting the gear up during takeoff in cat 3 I didn't notice that in cat 1. I did notice that it did that on some take offs, but never pegged it to CAT 1 or 3. Interesting discovery. I wonder if it's supposed to do that. AMD Ryzen 7 1700X @ 3.4GHz (Turbo's to 4.0GHz) ¦ x2 8GB Gskill Trident Z DDR4-3000 ¦EVGA GTX 1070 ¦ Asus prime X370-Pro ATX AM4 ¦ Thrustmaster Warthog ¦ Thrustmaster T-Flight Rudder Pedals ¦ Track IR FC3 ¦ F5 ¦ M2000C ¦ AV8B ¦ A10C ¦ F18C ¦ F16C ¦ SA432 ¦ UH1H ¦ MI8 ¦ KA50 ¦ NEVADA ¦ CAUCASUS ¦ PERSIAN GULF ¦ NORMANDY ¦ Supercarrier | Wish List: RAF Tornado GR4 RAF CH-47 Chinook Mk6 RAF Hawker Typhoon (Warbird) http://www.twitch.tv/uncappingbadger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 (edited) Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment? AFAIK, there is nothing in the RL documentation about it. I am gonna ask a driver about it. Edited August 29, 2020 by Dee-Jay ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 Is it confirmed that there's something strange with the CATIII roll rate? With my 20cm extension and full throw, my Viper rolls about as fast as a P-51 or P-47 in CATIII, but CATI responsiveness with AG stores/wing bags seems too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 Has anyone noticed that switching between cat 1 and cat 3 interrupts your alignment?. AFAIK, there is nothing in the RL documentation about it. I al gonna ask a driver about it. Asked. Answered => (as expected) Is not supposed to be the case (is a bug). ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJQCN101 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 ... NASA model don't include any CAT III evaluations, so I don't know which charts are mentioned (?) But to me, considering the -1, the described relationship between CAT I or III, we are not within the 40% of RRT reduction given by the -1. ... The exact value can be found in the DFLCS block diagram. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4058809&postcount=3 The graph is too blurry and I cannot really tell if it's 130 or 134. But this value is exactly 40% of 324 deg/s, which is the maximum commandable roll rate in DFLCS. EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glide Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Yes, I have flown other sims which had full fidelity CatI/III modeling and would light up the caution board if you over G'd. That might be a real challenge for new players. That level of realism will be welcome to the hardcore players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 ... Caution light do not necessarily light up in case of over G. You may have non listed or non reported failures. (could be hung stores, bomb fuse arming wiring damaged ... etc ... airframe structural damage ... other ...) ASUSTeK ROG MAXIMUS X HERO / Intel Core i5-8600K (4.6 GHz) / NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti FE 12GB / 32GB DDR4 Ballistix Elite 3200 MHz / Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB / Be Quiet! Straight Power 11 1000W Platinum / Windows 10 Home 64-bit / HOTAS Cougar FSSB R1 (Warthog grip) / SIMPED / MFD Cougar / ViperGear ICP / SimShaker JetPad / Track IR 5 / Curved LED 27'' Monitor 1080p Samsung C27F396 / HP Reverb G2 VR Headset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glide Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Yes, I recall that now. And the crew chiefs would not be happy re-seating all those rivets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Money Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 I did some flying in CATIII recently and I dont think its necessarily off as whole. I believe where the issue lies is the 324 deg/sec roll rate. Regardless of CATI/III, the INITIAL maximum roll rate should be 324 deg/sec. After 90 degrees of roll, the system will reduce roll rate according to AOA or CAT condition. You may be in a clean jet but roll rate is reduced due to AOA or in a CATIII stores config and the roll rate is reduced due to loadout. To me it feels as if the CATIII switch currently just cuts off 40% of roll rate without taking into consideration the initial roll rate. Then again, the system may not be able to overcome the initial inertia needed to get a fully loaded CATIII config to roll 324 deg/sec through 90 degrees or may not be able to stop the inertia of the same CATIII config at that roll rate to reduce it sufficiently, hence a lower than 324 deg/sec initial roll rate. Intel i9-13900k, Asus Z790-E Gaming Wi-fi 2 motherboard, 64gb Corsair DDR5-6400 RGB ram 2x32gb XMP2 profile, 2TB Crucial T700 PCIE 5.0 SSD internal, 2TB Samsung 980 Pro PCIE 4.0 SSD internal, Asus ROG Strix OC GeForce RTX 4090, Corsair 7000X Case with 5 x 120mm side mounted intake fans and 3 x 140mm top mounted exhaust fans, 1 x 140mm rear mounted exhaust fans, front mounted Corsair H150i Elite Capellix 360mm liquid cooler w/Elite LCD with 6 x 120mm fans in 3 push, 3 pull intake configuration, 2 x 32" Asus 2560x1440 displays, TrackIR5 w/pro clip, Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle, CH Fighterstick Pro and Pebble Beach Velocity pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouli306 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 I did some flying in CATIII recently and I dont think its necessarily off as whole. I believe where the issue lies is the 324 deg/sec roll rate. Regardless of CATI/III, the INITIAL maximum roll rate should be 324 deg/sec. After 90 degrees of roll, the system will reduce roll rate according to AOA or CAT condition. You may be in a clean jet but roll rate is reduced due to AOA or in a CATIII stores config and the roll rate is reduced due to loadout. To me it feels as if the CATIII switch currently just cuts off 40% of roll rate without taking into consideration the initial roll rate. Then again, the system may not be able to overcome the initial inertia needed to get a fully loaded CATIII config to roll 324 deg/sec through 90 degrees or may not be able to stop the inertia of the same CATIII config at that roll rate to reduce it sufficiently, hence a lower than 324 deg/sec initial roll rate. I wonder where did you find that stuff about the initial 90degrees of roll?? As far as i am concerned CATIII would just cut roll rate with 40%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Money Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 @Bouli306 There is a wealth of information from back in the day, a website called Code One Magazine. Its been around since the late 90s at least. Way back in the day when I was flying Mac Falcon 4 lol. An article called Semper Viper on that website is where the information was obtained long ago. Its an excellent read, although the website doesnt publish the article in its entirety online, you can download a pdf copy. The only problem is the text isnt the easiest to read in the pdf file so long reading hurts the eyes. Link here https://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=174 The initial roll rate information is in the 14th paragraph down from the top. Intel i9-13900k, Asus Z790-E Gaming Wi-fi 2 motherboard, 64gb Corsair DDR5-6400 RGB ram 2x32gb XMP2 profile, 2TB Crucial T700 PCIE 5.0 SSD internal, 2TB Samsung 980 Pro PCIE 4.0 SSD internal, Asus ROG Strix OC GeForce RTX 4090, Corsair 7000X Case with 5 x 120mm side mounted intake fans and 3 x 140mm top mounted exhaust fans, 1 x 140mm rear mounted exhaust fans, front mounted Corsair H150i Elite Capellix 360mm liquid cooler w/Elite LCD with 6 x 120mm fans in 3 push, 3 pull intake configuration, 2 x 32" Asus 2560x1440 displays, TrackIR5 w/pro clip, Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle, CH Fighterstick Pro and Pebble Beach Velocity pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Money Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 Here is a download link for the pdf file https://www.codeonemagazine.com/imag...49318_9999.pdf Intel i9-13900k, Asus Z790-E Gaming Wi-fi 2 motherboard, 64gb Corsair DDR5-6400 RGB ram 2x32gb XMP2 profile, 2TB Crucial T700 PCIE 5.0 SSD internal, 2TB Samsung 980 Pro PCIE 4.0 SSD internal, Asus ROG Strix OC GeForce RTX 4090, Corsair 7000X Case with 5 x 120mm side mounted intake fans and 3 x 140mm top mounted exhaust fans, 1 x 140mm rear mounted exhaust fans, front mounted Corsair H150i Elite Capellix 360mm liquid cooler w/Elite LCD with 6 x 120mm fans in 3 push, 3 pull intake configuration, 2 x 32" Asus 2560x1440 displays, TrackIR5 w/pro clip, Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle, CH Fighterstick Pro and Pebble Beach Velocity pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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