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Thank you for the new FM


riojax

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And in general, you can make it so that you can stick your head out from behind the covered lantern of the cockpit? And then the MiG21 has no texture. They just don’t) when you look at it you come in horror)

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Either fix the textures, or close, take away the opportunity to stick your head out of the cockpit lantern! In general, this is wild, and terrible for such a simulator! It's somehow not right !! Absurdity is complete!

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No, and you?

 

 

The AoA indicator in the plane don't uses degrees, are "units" and if you see it on tacview will have the current real degrees, usually they are near 25º at maximum pitch.

 

 

I tested the Mig-21 complains in the F-5E and not only can do the same, also it can do a reversal no-power pitch at more than -100º AoA. Please, this FM is not perfect, but isn't broken. All developers are doing their best, and insult their work isn't the way to help us. Show the real tables for AoA, weight, speed, turn rate, etc. and compare it on DCS is the way, but say "oh, it's a UFO" or "this is broken" don't help anyone.

 

Also probably all here are humans with feelings and when someone is working on something is good to make it feel that is rewarding in some manner, mate, be constructive.

 

wrong. my tacview shows MiG21 hitting 45° AoA (even 49°) regularly..

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WAT. You're 90yo?!!!

 

If you are saying that you "flew" it only in DCS and asked me for the same... PFFFFF... yes... I *used* this DCS module from the first day. Anyway, I did think that you ask for REAL flying, and now I understand a lot of your opinions.

 

 

 

 

Ok, show us <<much as you want>> AoA. I only get 32º AoA on tacview with a very extreme maneuver that left our poor balalaika at less than 80km/h.

 

 

 

Yes, it need to be reviewed, but don't worry if you don't know it, this is a WIP FM update probably from Dolphin, of course isn't a final FM version. And of course it needs improves. We aren't discussing this obviousness.

 

geez do you want me to show you a track where it reaches 45° regularly doing scissors at slow speed ?

 

Let's be serious here

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I just made a quick offline test, very simple, throttle to max, I then pull the stick to the max, I just make simple left and right motions of the stick to avoid going toward ground, I don't even use rudder at any point (my feet were off the rudder, I was actually on a phone call while doing this, you can hear me in the background, just to show you how easy it is :) ).

Tacview result :

Actual tacview attached.

The AoA is almost permanently between 25 and 30, pulling the stick to the max doesn't cross that limit during the test, it's like a hard limit set by some autopilot, which AFAIK is not present in the actual Mig21

There is zero need for rudder to keep the aircraft stable.

I go down to 70kph with the same behaviour, at which point is the only time I release the stick a bit to get out of this state and regain a bit of speed. Zero difficulty to keep the plane horizontal in this state and speed, with stick only, no rudder.

 

Also another quick example on another test I made where you see AoA going up to 40°, same without losing stability or any sign of stall:

Again, this is offline test.

 

Imho, we lost a problematic behavior at take off I didn't even notice, and gained this. I don't think we actually gained a better FM

Tacview-20200513-113534-DCS-testMig21AoA.zip.acmi.zip


Edited by Whisper

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

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Regardless what may have been fixed (if anything), we've now totally lost the lower edge of the MiG's flight envelope - again, saying this as someone who tends to fly it slow and pull the nose, the MiG-21bis now handles like it has fly-by-wire. It cannot be forced to depart without literally dancing on the controls, at any speed. It's actually easier to fly than the F-16 or F-18 in low speed turning fights. It absolutely dominates many of the 4th gens with low-effort stick-pulling, let alone its contemporaries. It used to take a good MiG pilot and some luck to beat an F-5 in a turning fight; the F-5 now routinely gets eaten alive because the same people who repeatedly departed controlled flight beforem and ended up in the stall-recover-overcorrect-stall cycle right down to the ground, are now able to pull with no consequence.

 

I've said this before, but if this was in any way realistic behaviour, the UUA-1 would not be redlined, the POH would not explicitly prohibit flight below certain speeds at low altitude, there would be no need for the return-to-horizontal SAU 'panic button' on the stick.

 

There also still seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about AoA. Considering the UUA-1 displays local AoA, and considering the pilot shouldn't be expected to do mental arithmetic to resolve true AoA from that, why would the POH or other operational documents be in true AoA rather than the same local AoA units shown on the UUA-1? It makes absolutely no sense.

 

Easy is not good. Hard is not good. Realistic is good, and the prior FM update felt the closest to what I'd expect from an aircraft like the MiG-21 (as someone who obviously hasn't flown one, but has flown).


Edited by rossmum
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Regardless what may have been fixed (if anything), we've now totally lost the lower edge of the MiG's flight envelope - again, saying this as someone who tends to fly it slow and pull the nose, the MiG-21bis now handles like it has fly-by-wire. It cannot be forced to depart without literally dancing on the controls, at any speed. It's actually easier to fly than the F-16 or F-18 in low speed turning fights. It absolutely dominates many of the 4th gens with low-effort stick-pulling, let alone its contemporaries. It used to take a good MiG pilot and some luck to beat an F-5 in a turning fight; the F-5 now routinely gets eaten alive because the same people who repeatedly departed controlled flight beforem and ended up in the stall-recover-overcorrect-stall cycle right down to the ground, are now able to pull with no consequence.

 

I've said this before, but if this was in any way realistic behaviour, the UUA-1 would not be redlined, the POH would not explicitly prohibit flight below certain speeds at low altitude, there would be no need for the return-to-horizontal SAU 'panic button' on the stick.

 

There also still seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about AoA. Considering the UUA-1 displays local AoA, and considering the pilot shouldn't be expected to do mental arithmetic to resolve true AoA from that, why would the POH or other operational documents be in true AoA rather than the same local AoA units shown on the UUA-1? It makes absolutely no sense.

 

Easy is not good. Hard is not good. Realistic is good, and the prior FM update felt the closest to what I'd expect from an aircraft like the MiG-21 (as someone who obviously hasn't flown one, but has flown).

 

listen to this guy

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By the way - regarding that LanceR display, posted a few pages ago: as far as I know, the LanceR does not change the position of the AoA vane. That means that the reading on the HUD is being fed the same data the UUA-1 would be in our 21bis - and notice the number only barely exceeds 28 once or twice. This corresponds to the stated maximum permissible at this speed and altitude in documents Shmal/Skyrider has posted in the past and also corresponds to the border between the 'yellow-black zone' and 'red-black zone' (as referred to by name on some of the graphs posted earlier in this thread). 25 as per UUA reading is child's play and the aircraft (as per previous FM) would comfortably fly at this AoA, so I'm not surprised to see the pilot maintaining it here.

 

I think it's a reasonable assumption that references to AoA would, especially in handbooks distributed to pilots, be given in the same units displayed by the UUA. You don't have time to do arithmetic when you're on the edge of your aircraft's performance envelope, so training pilots to use the true AoA rather than local AoA units would make no sense.

 

The previous FM would not display any unpleasant behaviour until somewhere between 31-33 AoA as displayed on the UUA, which from memory translates to somewhere like 22-24 degrees true. If you had a good 'feel' for the stick inputs and kept an eye on the UUA you could hold it quite comfortably at 33 in a hard turn, easing off the stick gently as speed decreased and AoA naturally began to increase.

 

We are now able to maintain an AoA so high that it goes off the scale of the UUA. Again, if this was realistic behaviour, why even install such an instrument?

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Hello guys. That’s corrected, it’s good, but it’s not the same as it should be! First, when stalling, and going to the supercritical mode, that shaking should not happen! In Russian, the stick does not have any vibration. And it should be. The plane, as it were, makes a somersault, it looks ridiculous). But it’s even better than it was)

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So, i congratuate everybody with new update of the flight-model and it's fixed many problems which we've been watching before:

1. Old stall behaviour when plane was going to fly by it's belly to forward with crazy 40° AOA in level flight.

There was no any other features on critical AOA at all! Done!

2. Now we have pronounced stall behaviour after 32° (35° on cockpit gauge). We have rapid wing rocking, throws from wing to wing in turn and it's going to opposite side of the turn, out of the turn as it has to be because its tipical for delta shaped wing! It is not so simple and not so scripted as we can think, for example if you push a pedal in to the side of turn the wing rocking starts into the turn too! And it's great! Is'nt it?

3. We have central directed stall without wing rocking with spetial conditions!

4. We have inproved behaviour while take off running! No more crazy jumps!

5. We have much more realistic duration of the gear while rude touching! I was trying to brake the gear on 340km/h and -5m/s vertical speed and it's Ok after that! Done!

6. There is no more suspitious wobbling of the nose on pretty good speed 400-700 km/h. Also there was hard to trim. Done!

7. I have noticed there are no more UFO down directed spot lights to the ground when it extended. Done!

8. Bug with critical reducing the heat signature of the jet nozzle with afterburner. Done!

 

Dear developers! I sincerely thank you for the work you've done!


Edited by Shmal

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I have to agree with others. The latest open beta FM feels awesome. Now if the sound mod would get incorporated to the release version and the gunsight worked as it should, I would be pretty happy. But I still dislike the canopy looking like it was used on a static gate guard for 10 years in really bad weather. I also can't wait for a pilot body in the cockpit, especially when flying VR.

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The biggest problem with the canopy is that everything else in DCS is pristine, which is also kinda iffy as you collect so many bug guts in flight and the things go like concrete almost immediately. I don't think I've ever seen footage from a fighter cockpit where there wasn't at least one good-size smear on the windscreen. In an ideal world it'd start spotless and occasionally collect some crap over the course of a sortie, based on time in the air and altitude, but I think I'm dreaming with that one. New cockpit should probably fix it anyway and if all else fails, there are some nice clean canopy mods.

 

FM feels pretty solid now. The trim is even more painful than before - it always either under- or overshoots, but that could well be how the real aircraft behaves and it's not too big of a deal to be honest. Departures are fairly abrupt and a tiiiiny bit harder to recover from at very low altitude, that or I've rusted up over a month of flying other stuff, but feel about right and are still relatively predictable. The aircraft exhibits a lot less tendency to porpoise or wander at low speed and almost none at high speed, SAU modes feel good, and it's nice to see all the people who were abusing last patch's issues back to stalling into the ground and dying mad.

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