Anyone willing to help me with Landing/Angle of Attack

Hi

I'm struggling with the whole Angle of Attack/Landing thing with the Hornet.

I understand the principal and am trying to use Power and Trim.

But i end up going too far down or up very quickly.

I also might have one of my wings start to roll/bank although i am sure my Hotas is calibrated correctly and have deadzones in them.

Anyone willing to fly with me one night this week and help me?

I can use teamspeak(preferred) or Discord.

I'd be eternally grateful.

PM if you can help.

Thanks

You may want to state your general location.

Sorry. UK timezone.

Would be happy to. Catch us on discord.

I'm struggling with the whole Angle of Attack/Landing thing with the Hornet.

Hi

 

I'm struggling with the whole Angle of Attack/Landing thing with the Hornet.

I understand the principal and am trying to use Power and Trim.

But i end up going too far down or up very quickly.

I also might have one of my wings start to roll/bank although i am sure my Hotas is calibrated correctly and have deadzones in them.

 

Anyone willing to fly with me one night this week and help me?

I can use teamspeak(preferred) or Discord.

 

I'd be eternally grateful.

 

PM if you can help.

 

Thanks

When FCS & Mission Computer (MC) thinks it is landing. That is your aircraft is below 220 knots, ILS (or carrier equivalent) is ON, it places auto-TRIMs pitch chanell. You can see it on control overlay. A small horizontal bar across pitch axis.

Place flight path marker on runway threshold at , hold pitch steady. When over runway approach lights, adjust power slightly to, and pitch subtly , so that flight path marker is on desired runway t/d point. Hold steady. You don't need to flare , unless at high/mah gross weight minimum for landing. In RW, and I had char with former A-4E aviator. Naval Aviators , when flying carrier capable aircraft, don't flare. Their approach is as if to carrier trap.

When FCS & Mission Computer (MC) thinks it is landing. That is your aircraft is below 220 knots, ILS (or carrier equivalent) is ON, it places auto-TRIMs pitch chanell. You can see it on control overlay. A small horizontal bar across pitch axis.

Any more info about this please? Source available maybe?

Firstly thank you for all replies.

I have watched that video already. I understand what he does, but i just can't do it like him yet. :)

Lex i may join you and thanks

Quick question. On a straight in approach what distance and height should i be from the runway when i start to lower gear and put flaps to full and start the Onspeed approach.

Thanks

SOmething I found helped, just practice flying at about 135 - 140 kts, nose up using trim on POV hat to gently stabilise, no joystick input. Balance the rate of descent with v small movements on the throttle. Get used to the feeling when it is stable and you can just nudge up/down with the pov hat and throttle. Allow it time to settle before over-inputting a correction.

Firstly thank you for all replies.

I have watched that video already. I understand what he does, but i just can't do it like him yet. :)

 

 

Lex i may join you and thanks

 

Quick question. On a straight in approach what distance and height should i be from the runway when i start to lower gear and put flaps to full and start the Onspeed approach.

 

Thanks

Whatever distance you like . Figure 300 feet of altitude per mile .

Ok Guys. Here's my problem.

Critique away in a constructive fashion please.

I know it's not pretty.

@bunraku

I am new at this as well, and have been practicing this for about 3 weeks and still stink at it. The new Super Carrier is tougher than the old Stennis as well.

Two videos that helped me out a lot and break it down are from Lex, and Jabbers:

Bankler's excellent training mission for Case 1 landings is very helpful as well. It grades and gives feedback on all phases of the landing (initial, the break, downwind, the turn, and the groove). That mission uses the old Stennis, and is available here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=221412

Three thing that also helped me most out was breaking down individual stages of the landing pattern, and just working on the fundamentals:

1 - Ignore the boat. Set your bingo fuel to 2k. Take off from an airfield near water, and then go fly over the water at 800 feet. Get into landing configuration (hook, gear, full flaps, and on AoA) and work to maintain that 800 feet. This teaches you to work the throttle in order to maintain altitude. Your going to constantly work the throttle. Then do level turns at 30º bank. Turn 180º while maintaining 800 feet. Using cardinal directions (N, S, E, W) simplifies the math for your turns. Once you get the hang of that, do descents down to 600 feet, and then climb back up to 800 feet. Keep practicing the climbs and descents. Once you get that down, then do descending 180º turns, again 800 down to 600 feet. Keep practicing, and head back to your airfield for fuel once you get the bingo warning. Repeat as needed.

2 - Ignore the boat. Set your bingo fuel to 2k. Take off from an airfield near water, and then go fly over the water at 800 feet. Except this time, you are going to practice nothing except the break turn. Pick two opposing cardinal directions (N and S, or E and W) and fly that heading at 350 kts. When ready, throttle to idle, speed brake out, left bank to ~70º, and pull ~3G. Watch your attitude to maintain 800 feet. Gear out at 250, shallow your bank angle to 30º, half flaps at 220. Your speed brake should retract automatically when your flaps deploy, Full flaps around 190-180 kts. Stop your turn at 180º and get on trim. Hopefully you stayed at 800 feet throughout that turn. Fly like that a bit, then throttle up and clean up the aircraft (flaps up, gear up). Get back to 350 kts and do it again and again until you get the bingo warning. Land for more fuel and repeat as needed.

3 - Ignore the boat. Pick an airfield, and practice touch and gos. Use the TACAN to help gauge your distance from the field. When I did this, I would climb to 5,000 feet and do a long final. A 3º glideslope translates to about 300 feet descent per mile, 5,000/300=16.67 mile final. Once I got comfortable doing that at 5k feet, I dropped down to 4k and continued to practice, only reducing altitude as I got more confident. Refuel as needed, I ended up burning several tanks of fuel doing this.

Once you get comfortable with that, then try to do Case 1 landings on the boat. It's going to take a lot of practice. :joystick: My three practice techniques above can be boring, but helped me to develop the skills needed. One other thing I learned the hard way, is that the bank angle scale at the the bottom of your HUD is not marked in 10º increments. It's marked off in 15º increments, with two little ones marking 5º. Not knowing this at first caused my turns to be too steep.

Also, stop practicing if you are getting frustrated, take a break from it. Go blow stuff up for a while and come back to landings another time.

Whatever distance you like . Figure 300 feet of altitude per mile .

That is a good ballpark figure to use, and you can even figure out how long your approach will be based on altitude. Just divide your start altitude by 300. For example, 4,000 feet divided by 300 equals 13.3 miles. So if you start at 4,000 feet, you should begin your descent around 13 miles out.

Ok Guys. Here's my problem.

Critique away in a constructive fashion please.

I know it's not pretty.

 

I just watched that and noticed a few things. That is what my earlier landings looked like when I first got the Hornet.

At 0:20 when you dropped the gear and flaps, your aircraft pitched up significantly. Completely normal at that speed. The Hornet's flaps are very large and generate a lot of lift. Better technique is to throttle to idle, speed brake out, and gear out at 250. Flaps to half between 200-220 kts, full around 180 kts. That helps prevent the significant pitch up. You can use forward stick to counter that and keep your velocity vector on the horizon, easing back as your speed comes down.

At 2:40 you are re-trimming the aircraft, and ended up over 9.3º AoA. Once your are on trim with the orange donut on the AoA indexer and centered on the E bracket, you don't need to touch the trim. Also, don't pitch with the stick. You can use a little bit of stick for minor pitch corrections like when entering or coming out of turns, but no large movements as this throws off your AoA.

At 3:15 you were well above glideslope, but added power. This kept you above glide slope. You're AoA was too high as well.

At 4:08 that alarm was just your radar altimeter, letting you know that you just descended below what it was set to.

Thank you for putting the control overlay on screen. Watching that I did notice that you are not working the throttle as you should be. Once you are on AoA, all vertical corrections are done with throttle (ascent, descent, maintaining glide slope). Your AoA will stay centered as long as you don't pitch with the stick. You are going to constantly be sawing on the throttle, you won't ever be able to find the sweet spot throttle setting to maintain glideslope. You shouldn't be doing large throttle movements, just small ones, but constant movement. If you find yourself drifting off glideslope, briefly add more or less power as needed and go back where you can maintain your glideslope.

The throttle thing is not a quirk of the flight model in DCS. Videos I've watched of real Hornet pilots doing this, you can see they constantly are working the throttle as well.

A lot of this will become second nature to you as you gain familiarity with the Hornet. Keep practicing! :joystick:

@bunraku:

According to your video you need much better throttle control. You don't react in advance and your throttle movements are either to small or to big.

Trim: In landing configuration trim for AoA and then never touch trim. Everything is done with throttle.

Throttle: If you see your FPM falling down and you want to level out on the horizon, then you need to push the throttle before you hit that horizon. If you descend, you don't need that much power.

And you need to use the throttles while you are doing all the rest. Don't ignore throttle while you are manouvering or setting up flaps and gear.

Maybe it is better you first train maintaining a set speed. If you can control this with only 1 or 2 knots deviation, you will be ready for landing.

For me it helps when I configure for landing and then aiming for about 130 to 140 knots. Then I can do little corrections to fly level - and then I look at the speed and know my current Final approach speed. I try to hold that speed and I will be always level. In turns you need to add a bit of power. When climbing or descending you need more/less power to hold that speed.

You just need practice in using the throttle.

I agree your throttle needs practice. Short fast movements are better than slow large movements. Don't move the throttle and hold it there waiting to see what happens. You have to give a little and take it right back and see what happens. Your throttle should never be still. It's always moving.

You can't practice enough and it will become easier if you persist.

Ok Guys. Here's my problem.

Critique away in a constructive fashion please.

I know it's not pretty.

 

You've got the right idea in that you're controlling descent with throttle. Where you're going wrong is waiting too long to make corrections. Corrections need to be small and frequent. As soon as you see the nose drift away from where you want it, make a throttle correction.

It's not possible to find a sweet spot for the throttle where you can just leave it; you'll need to make corrections all the way through the approach.

Thank you Diesel.

Much appreciated!

Here's a great real life example. Watch the throttles on this video, you'll see that they are never still until after he is on deck.

I just watched that and noticed a few things. That is what my earlier landings looked like when I first got the Hornet.

 

At 0:20 when you dropped the gear and flaps, your aircraft pitched up significantly. Completely normal at that speed. The Hornet's flaps are very large and generate a lot of lift. Better technique is to throttle to idle, speed brake out, and gear out at 250. Flaps to half between 200-220 kts, full around 180 kts. That helps prevent the significant pitch up. You can use forward stick to counter that and keep your velocity vector on the horizon, easing back as your speed comes down.

 

Hi,

I'm really new to this also, and have a query with regards to your comment (it's not a criticism). All the videos I have watched and threads I have read all state that at 250 you dump the gear and flaps down. This does cause the plane to balloon up, but I just try to overcome it as best I can with a bit of forward stick until the speed and subsequently nose come down.

I would love to know if (with respect) your method is a bit of a cheat, and what real world pilots/procedure is?

Any comment from the RL Hornet drivers?

Here's a great real life example. Watch the throttles on this video, you'll see that they are never still until after he is on deck.

 

I've been waiting until I touchdown before going to full burner. He did it quite a bit before that. I wonder if he was a bit slow or is that the accepted method?

Hi,

 

I'm really new to this also, and have a query with regards to your comment (it's not a criticism). All the videos I have watched and threads I have read all state that at 250 you dump the gear and flaps down. This does cause the plane to balloon up, but I just try to overcome it as best I can with a bit of forward stick until the speed and subsequently nose come down.

 

I would love to know if (with respect) your method is a bit of a cheat, and what real world pilots/procedure is?

 

Any comment from the RL Hornet drivers?

I don't think it's a cheat, just an alternate technique to help prevent ballooning. Full flaps is the goal while getting the speed down so you can get on AoA. Me personally, I find that going to ½ and then full helps maintain altitude better than going full flaps all at once. I don't believe that either technique is wrong, and there is nothing in the NATOPS that says you have to do it one particular way. Dropping full flaps in the turn can definitely help prevent ballooning as much as opposed to doing that while horizontal.

I've been waiting until I touchdown before going to full burner. He did it quite a bit before that. I wonder if he was a bit slow or is that the accepted method?

To be fair, that was a Super Hornet in that video. I don't know if the SH has finger lifts on the throttles to go into burner. If it does, then based on the position of that pilots hand, it seems like he just went to MIL power and not A/B. I believe you are supposed to throttle up just prior to touchdown to allow the engines enough time to spool up in case you bolter.

Thanks again for all replies. I will learn better throttle control

I've been waiting until I touchdown before going to full burner. He did it quite a bit before that. I wonder if he was a bit slow or is that the accepted method?

MIL should be selected rather than A/B according to the manual.

As for the video, after they cross the ramp take a look at the ball - it looks like it starts to drop, which is probably why they went to MIL before touchdown.

I thought MIL was for the Tomcat? We use the burner for launch on the Hornet?

I don't think it's a cheat, just an alternate technique to help prevent ballooning. Full flaps is the goal while getting the speed down so you can get on AoA. Me personally, I find that going to ½ and then full helps maintain altitude better than going full flaps all at once. I don't believe that either technique is wrong, and there is nothing in the NATOPS that says you have to do it one particular way. Dropping full flaps in the turn can definitely help prevent ballooning as much as opposed to doing that while horizontal.

 

 

 

To be fair, that was a Super Hornet in that video. I don't know if the SH has finger lifts on the throttles to go into burner. If it does, then based on the position of that pilots hand, it seems like he just went to MIL power and not A/B. I believe you are supposed to throttle up just prior to touchdown to allow the engines enough time to spool up in case you bolter.

Thx DT,

I will give that technique a try.