Valve Index Hands On

We’ll see about that. I’m looking forward to getting my Index. Then I’ll be able to make a direct comparison with the Reverb.

I guess its possible that the optics are a miracle. But I doubt it. The main reason the HP will win, is high number of actual pixels with a low FOV = high PPD displayed. The index has less pixels and more FOV = lower ppd. Of course we don't much about either optical system which could help the index some, but I look forward to your comparison.

I guess its possible that the optics are a miracle. But I doubt it. The main reason the HP will win, is high number of actual pixels with a low FOV = high PPD displayed. The index has less pixels and more FOV = lower ppd. Of course we don't much about either optical system which could help the index some, but I look forward to your comparison.

The Reverb doesn't have a low FOV. Quoted as 110-114, but yes, it is lower than the Index.

I am looking forward to trying them both side by side, as there is a lot more to image quality than a pixel count, as my comparison with the VP shows.

???

 

It is at the expense of pixel density...

 

I like the Index, it will probably be the one for me, but to be fair, you cannot move the screens closer without decreasing ppd, period.

 

If I had an HMD that was precisely identical to an index, except the screens slightly further from my eyes with a slightly lower FoV, I would certainly have better ppd.

 

Perhaps you simply are referring to the literal, physical pixel density of the displays?

That is far less relevant than a pixel-per-degree approach, which is what the Index sacrifices for greater FoV.

 

For example, it has te same resolution as the Vive Pro, but a much greater FoV, its ppd will actually be worse.

 

However, its stripe display with the better subpixel ararngement will offset this, so there will be some increasxe in visual fidelity, but not as clear cut as it could be - unless you also count FoV as part of "fidelity" which is perfectly arguable.

Am not quite sure, if it could be expected from the Index what you described. I could follow, you´re refering to an eye-to-lense-distance effect, on how you perceive pixel density, but what is meant, as far as for my understanding, is the technical pixel density of the displays. Also I don´t believe, that the Index is sacrifying anything for a "wider FOV". It´s a bit strange, that Valve promotes the Index with a larger FOV for some(!) depending on the person, what means the Index does in fact not have a wider FOV, but depending on the person and how close to your eyes you adjust the screens, it could appear as a wider FOV.

I would bet, that the image displayed through the lenses of the Index does not get wider or narrower while moving the lenses closer to the eyes.

What I would expect from the Index are really optimum displays for VR, which could make an image through some optimum lenses as a perfect match for the used displays, look more good than just any displays with higher resolution through standard 1st Gen VR HMD lenses.

I would expect that from the Index, that the parts used are perfectly engineered for their use in combination for the VR headset.

I would say, the FOV of the Index will appear more large to the user, than with another HMD because of the HMDs design, but not because it actually uses larger FOV displays than Vive Pro.

More important for me would be, if Index LCDs could switch much more faster than other used LCDs in HMDs. In aynway they are switching much more faster than OLEDs, but I think, there are also differences in quality from LCD to LCD display, which might effect more for use in VR, than used for Smartphones or tablets or anything.

@Alec Delorian

You really gave me a big smile today with your postings, but the picture showing the Pimax is really old. Actually it is a picture taken from one of the early prototypes, which had massive distortion on the edges, but it is not, what you get or have to expect from the final product as it is nowadays. Since this picture was taken, Pimax searched for a new lens provider for the final version and did found one and they finally could have solved the problem, which shows the picture you´ve linked.

Also I have some doubts, if you could take the Index Video as an example on how the FOV or quality looks like, as it is a video grabbed from a flatscreen with a strange mask overlay, not though the lenses - that´s a common problem for getting some impressions with a HMD, that the only way to get a real impression is, to test it for real.

But I´m really optimistic for what Valve have designed. Valve also stated, that there are some updates in function will be added to SteamVR before the launch of the Index, means with current SteamVR the Index is not supported to its full capabilities.

It would be great, if there would be an option for setting the displays to high refresh rate, but to fix FPS at 90 for example. Let´s see, what´s coming up ... lastly I decided to skip the current new HMDs anyway, as I am quite happy with the 5k+ meanwhile. Don´t get me wrong: if I like to see a winning team over another, I´ll watch a soccer match on TV and not VR headsets, but of the current new ones, none could beat the 5k+ ...lol.

Now that is a tirade. I commend you sir. :lol:

LOL. :smartass:

as we’ve seen over and over, paper specs are one thing, real life is another.

personally, i prefer a unit that works better in real life.

Better go with what the many many prefer... :)

Apparently, the flood gates opened up while I taught my class this morning. I am an electrical engineer who teaches at a university. I have nothing to do with Facebook, Oculus or any other VR manufacturer. :megalol:

 

If you take a fully modern rig (say 9900 k, 390 board, 2080 Ti, Samsung 970 Pro, yada, yada, ...) and plug in and fly with the Rift S and Index, the overall better experience right now is with the Rift S. Steam VR has some hiccups with the Index that will supposedly be ironed out by late June. Even aside from that, I stand by what I said earlier, you cannot run the Index at high settings and a pixel density of about 1.4 and get over low 30s FPS with one single 2080 Ti card. As surprising as it may be, the better subjective experience is actually had with the Rift S, even though the Index beats it on paper.

 

But Delorean, why stop there? Go for the Pimax 5K, which clearly beats the Index on paper. Surely you will have a better experience with the 5K over the Index right? Give that a try. :megalol:

Any chance you can give us a quick through the lens photo in both the Rift S and Index looking at the same scene from the same perspective? Would allow us to (finally) see whether Valve really did pull off some voodoo and increase the FOV without sacrificing PPD, or whether it really does have less PPD than the Rift S (which the paper specs suggest).

Valve Index Hands On

I'm going with the Index..

Oops..

I'm supposed to post that in the Rift thread, am I not?

Hum, the Index thread is for Rift discussion, and the Rift thread is for Index discussion, but the Rift thread mostly seems to be about problems folks are having with the Rift..

I'm getting confused now...:drunk:

:D:D

There is zippo Index post in the Rift S forum, in the other hand, the same can’t be said about this forum.

I’d appreciate if people who already have the headset would do the type of early reviews that we see with the Rift S or Reverb (fit and finish, set up process, image fidelity especially with variable refresh rates, direct FOV measurement, comfort, IPD adjustment, immersiveness, tracking especially in the dark, audio quality). Instead all I’m seeing is quoted 20-30 FPS with the highest end PC rig which isn’t that helpful and may or may not be reproducible by others given that good FPS are seen in reviews on YouTube and VR news sites with other apps.

If you follow Delorean's reasoning, the Vive Pro should have been the better headset in DCS than the original Rift. But, many, many people who owned both preferred the Rift over the Vive Pro. We will see what improvements Valve can bring to Steam VR between now and mass release but with what I have actually seen with my own eyes, the Rift S provides the better seat of the pants experience. I know many of you probably believe I am toking on the ganja joint, but I assure you, I am not. :)

If not the ganja joint, then it must be something else then!

That statement makes absolutely no sense to me. The Vive Pro was a massive leap forward from my Rift in every respect. In fact, if you read my ‘review’ of my Reverb comparing to my VP in the Reverb thread, I prefer the VP in so many ways.

Seriously, you need to visit a decent optician.

Here is a comparison between the Index and a VivePro, made by Cloudhead Games: https://imgur.com/a/BweqzrY

Source:

Despite the better ppd, Valve did a fantastic job on color calibration to meet nearly the same range like the OLED's in the VivePro.

The Rift S didn't get that treatment:

Especially, the lower (darker) color ranges suffer greatly. It's a costly step during production, monitor manufacturers also do that for their more professional products.

If you follow Delorean's reasoning, the Vive Pro should have been the better headset in DCS than the original Rift. But, many, many people who owned both preferred the Rift over the Vive Pro. We will see what improvements Valve can bring to Steam VR between now and mass release but with what I have actually seen with my own eyes, the Rift S provides the better seat of the pants experience. I know many of you probably believe I am toking on the ganja joint, but I assure you, I am not. :)

Ganja - this explains a lot. :megalol:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana

- altered senses (for example, seeing brighter colors)

Definitely helps with color perception using Rift and Rift S.

- altered sense of time

Helps with perception of frame rates.

- difficulty with thinking and problem-solving

Does not help with setting up an error-free testing environment for hardware and understanding how it works in detail.

- impaired memory

- hallucinations

- delusions

Explains why you have seen an HTC branding on the Valve Index and mixed up your Rift Cam setup for a SteamVR base station setup.

- psychosis

Reality. Ahhh reality... You see many, many people believe and prefer stuff that others don't... And tirades, where are compilation of facts...

Here is another study on marijuana vision effects:

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/08/health/marijuana-vision-effects/index.html

Science! :smartass:

@Alec Delorean - Thanks for the catch on the thread switch - these are all starting to look alike haha

For those that are interested -

Ok - quickly tried the Process Lasso suggestion and it cleared up my stuttering issues. I have pushed the SteamVR SS to 180% and 200% with 8x AF, no MSAA, and I got 45 frames consistent, no stuttering in the Sochi Free Flight. Interestingly, my CPU and GPU utilization still stayed at ~50% in MSI, which puzzled me with the jump from 180% to 200%. Need to do more specific testing but it is definitely SMOOTHER. :EDIT: Flew for several hours in all kinds of terrains and found my stutters have been resolved. I didn't check MSI, but as you will see below I have one other item to test... Will provide any tangible results I get.

Process Lasso config for DCS

Priority Class - high

CPU Affinity - left it alone; there is no Single CPU option on the newer version. Default was no affinity

:EDIT: Was suggested to disable HyperThreading on the processor for this option, which I will try tomorrow, though things are much better than they were with HT on.

IO Priority - high

Application Power Priority - High Performance

I didn't set the mem priority so that stayed as is which I think was defaulted to normal (highest available setting)

Good stuff - Thanks Alec DeLorean and FearlessFrog. This experience is getting much better on my current hardware, which will be really amazing on Index!

I'm glad it helped a bit. There are 2 other things you can try to find a solution.

Switch to SteamVR beta, it's usually very stable and updated very frequently with fixes for all VR systems.

Check this:

Sweviver discovered a strange bug with GPU usage, however i can't reproduce this on my system since i already have proper GPU usage. Must be related on how PiTool hooks (hacks... ;) ) into OpenVR.

 

Switch to SteamVR beta, it's usually very stable and updated very frequently with fixes for all VR systems.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but the current SteamVR beta crashes fpsVR for me, so I have had to go back to the release version.

Check the recent update fpsVR 1.7.6 :smilewink:

changelog: https://steamcommunity.com/games/908520/announcements/detail/1598129833721080266

Check the recent update fpsVR 1.7.6 :smilewink:

 

changelog: https://steamcommunity.com/games/908520/announcements/detail/1598129833721080266

Thanks for the heads up! Sorted!

....As surprising as it may be, the better subjective experience is actually had with the Rift S, even though the Index beats it on paper.

Unless you don't happen to have a Joe Average face shape.

I'm still on CV1 as S was a huge disappointment due to having an IPD of 69 - which is nothing special, but Oculus decided to go for Joe Average, probably to keep the price beneath that of competitors, and do away with IPD adjustment. This had game breaking results, giving an FoV more akin to looking through a vertically-oriented oval telescope than a mask. In fact , take the Oculus logo, turn it by 90° and that is similar to the view I had.

They may entice many Joe Averages into VR but how many customers will they lose? Even on their own forums, people are turning to other headsets in droves and dumping Oculus, leaving that place full of disgruntled VR newbies who are struggling to get their headsets working properly.

Not their finest hour at all. Should have coupled Quest to the PC at least as an option themselves - that would have pleased newcomers and their current customers alike.

As soon as I have something better - preferably Index, but that will go back, too, if I'm not happy, I'll be dumping Oculus because in effect, that's what they've done to me. :music_whistling:

and PS - I used to run a YouTube channel promoting their Rift CV1 with videos recorded directly from the Rift output and it was popular because it allowed people to see into VR without having a headset (which is how I got into it - thanks GameHard 4.0). I deleted that channel due to Oculus' narrow mindedness.

Yes , it does seem that Oculus doesn't want repeat business . The Lenovo Rift is not for me .

You really gave me a big smile today with your postings, but the picture showing the Pimax is really old. Actually it is a picture taken from one of the early prototypes, which had massive distortion on the edges, but it is not, what you get or have to expect from the final product as it is nowadays. Since this picture was taken, Pimax searched for a new lens provider for the final version and did found one and they finally could have solved the problem, which shows the picture you´ve linked.

Also I have some doubts, if you could take the Index Video as an example on how the FOV or quality looks like, as it is a video grabbed from a flatscreen with a strange mask overlay, not though the lenses - that´s a common problem for getting some impressions with a HMD, that the only way to get a real impression is, to test it for real.

This fruit ninja pic was grabbed by a user via the VR Headset Mirror function, i just asked a friend to grab another up-to-date image from the Headset Mirror of his 5K+ https://ibb.co/TL9d4ZV

As you can see, it's still the same superstretched distortion to fill the rest of the screen. Pimax uses a very inefficient way here to fill the outer periphery, lots of GPU performance is wasted with the large FOV option and the distortion is just geometrical not optical correct (it should have more of a stretched fisheye effect). The pixels there get rendered, but you can't see them clearly anyway. However, the normal and small FOV option are fine, if they only used squared panels instead of rectangular standard panels, in these modes a third of the screens just stays black and shows nothing.

Valve's approach is a bit different, they try to get the most out of what you can render with today's hardware without sacrificing GPU power on things that won't be displayed correctly anyway or need extremely expensive optics + predistortion calculations to be projected physically correct from larger custom-made displays through optics into your eyes. This is basically what StarVR achieved and well, their HMD comes a bit more expensive. The Index just takes a little step up on FOV, but in a affordable and well optimized way.

This video of the Index's right eye screen shows how much pixels of the right panel (square shape) are visible in VR, projected through their lens system into your right eye. It's a direct grab from the right display panel. The black border is called Hidden Area Mesh, which is injected by every VR compositor (SteamVR, Oculus, WMR) and masks stuff that needs to be covered to not produce light bleeding into the optics where it shouldn't be (in the left bottom corner you see the right side nose-gap). It also reduces pixel fill rates for a little performance gain, but only if a developer uses this via VR API. http://i.imgur.com/BtCb3rJ.jpg

As you can see, they use their panels extremely efficient, much better than the old gen - Vive, VivePro, all the WMR, Pimax and Facebook HMD's.

Let's also not forget that you can alter the FoV and refresh rate in the Index to suit yourself and your hardware.

This fruit ninja pic was grabbed by a user via the VR Headset Mirror function, i just asked a friend to grab another up-to-date image from the Headset Mirror of his 5K+ https://ibb.co/TL9d4ZV

As you can see, it's still the same superstretched distortion to fill the rest of the screen. Pimax uses a very inefficient way here to fill the outer periphery, lots of GPU performance is wasted with the large FOV option and the distortion is just geometrical not optical correct (it should have more of a stretched fisheye effect). The pixels there get rendered, but you can't see them clearly anyway. However, the normal and small FOV option are fine, if they only used squared panels instead of rectangular standard panels, in these modes a third of the screens just stays black and shows nothing.

Valve's approach is a bit different, they try to get the most out of what you can render with today's hardware without sacrificing GPU power on things that won't be displayed correctly anyway or need extremely expensive optics + predistortion calculations to be projected physically correct from larger custom-made displays through optics into your eyes. This is basically what StarVR achieved and well, their HMD comes a bit more expensive. The Index just takes a little step up on FOV, but in a affordable and well optimized way.

 

This video of the Index's right eye screen shows how much pixels of the right panel (square shape) are visible in VR, projected through their lens system into your right eye. It's a direct grab from the right display panel. The black border is called Hidden Area Mesh, which is injected by every VR compositor (SteamVR, Oculus, WMR) and masks stuff that needs to be covered to not produce light bleeding into the optics where it shouldn't be (in the left bottom corner you see the right side nose-gap). It also reduces pixel fill rates for a little performance gain, but only if a developer uses this via VR API. http://i.imgur.com/BtCb3rJ.jpg

 

As you can see, they use their panels extremely efficient, much better than the old gen - Vive, VivePro, all the WMR, Pimax and Facebook HMD's.

Thanks for getting a bit more into it - it´s very interesting.

But both we know, that these pictures don´t show, what you really see through the HMD.

The distortion shown with the Pimax picture are not visible in this way. The image in the Pimax surely looks right in the first place and not like the picture might express. This could lead to some confusion to readers. Same for the Index hidden area mesh, shown on the picture is not perceivable in this way when looking through the HMDs and its lenses.

Anways, but the pictures are very interesting to understand more , how the HMD works.

With regard to Pimax and its inefficient use of panels, I think, that Pimax messed it a bit up.

Not to undertsand wrongly, the image you get in the Pimax is pretty good and impressive, but totally agree, that it could be better.

I think the´ve messed it up, because on the first hand, Pitool Service is meant to work with the 5k+ and the 8k, which have different LCD panels, but the Pimax compositor seems to work same for both, which is not optimum. Secondly, the Pimax HMDs provide three different modes: small, normal and large FOV, which doesn´t thinks make easier to be optimum for each.

It would have been better, if Pimax API would ahve been optimized for only one kind of LCD panel and only one FOV, that´s why I totally agree with you and think that it´s messed up and far from optimum use of the hardware.

But there are also many opportunities to adjust and specify the settings for Pimax. The only thing, which can´t be adjusted is the shape of the lenses, which is very special. I don´t know, if you would get the same result through the lenses, which feels btw right to me, if you change the distortion at the outer edges of the panels.

There are quite interesting approaches to change this, but so far I could not have gone through everything... this will need a lot of time and enthusiasm to optimize the distortion and finally it´s the biggest challenge for the large FOV HMD.

But I enjoy Pimax and that the followed this approach and they already reached a very good result, even it´s not perfect.

Here are a some links and descriptions to the functions:

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/pimax-native-projection-and-pre-lens-warp-transformation/15775

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/pimax-distortion-editing/11493

But it´s not an easy task ...

How have your friend made the headset mirror pictures? It´s very interesting as they show the panels image and not though the lense image. How can I make these mirror images by myself?

It´s also interesting, that with the distortion at the edges, there might be used for example two physical LCDs on the panel for one pixel of the rednered image, which result in the streched and less sharp image. Let me mention again, that you don´t perceive the discrepancy unless you have seen, how it should look correctly, but there is also the sweetspot of the lenses, which is alreayd huge in the 5k+, but become unsharp on the edges. Maybe if the distortion on the panels could be corrected, it might have no effect, as the perceivable area around the sweetspot will be in anyway not as sharp as the area in the sweetspot... can´t say if or if not, unless it tested with optimized settings.

With reagrd to Valve´s Index, there´s no need to convince me, that Valve did a great job on this, but I think the Index´problem - only if we want to look for problems, not solutions this time-, is, that it comes a bit late on the market.

At this point the Index display resolution and FOV is pretty standard, just because the competitors put out less engineered and optimized HMDs with the same display resolution and FOV. I hope Valve keep thing going and now could get out their next HMD on base of Index innovative techniques much faster to be head to head with the competitors with a next generation and finally significantly better optimzed for the needs in VR ( especially with regard to the FOV ).

Headset Mirror Window: SteamVR status window options -> Display VR View (set to "both")

I was a Pimax backer until i attended at their first backer meetup in Berlin last year. After i tested all the 3 models, i decided to sell my pledge and wait a little longer for my next HMD. For me it wasn't good enough, huge FOV but lacking on everything else. It was ok for the backer money, but now they are selling these for twice as much and there are still problems with the housing which starts to show cracks after a while. The display panels are not that good, definitely no color calibration, bad contrasts and blacks. For something around 400$ i would say this is okay. Remember, it still has only a head-strap, no extra features like head phones or cameras for pass-through.

And a FOV of more than 110 still isn't standard these days, delivering 130-140 degrees in best possible quality is still a challenge for the consumer market.

All the HMD this year are still diving goggles, besides the Index which will start the biker helmet visor category and those through the lens pictures from cloudhead games show that Valve might have nailed the LCD problem with colors and contrasts. The difference between all LCD panel HMD's vs. Index looks like let's say TN panel vs. IPS.

Biker helmet visor???

:lol: Hahaha, come on. It was hard to find something...

this

https://www.pcgames.de/screenshots/medium/2018/07/Dakar18_Preview_Vorschau-36--pc-games.png

vs

that

https://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/893062675-boccaglio-shark-watching-occhiali-da-subacqueo-immersione-professionale.jpg

Okay? :cry:

The word i was searching for is ski goggles, yay.

The Ski Goggles category!