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To VR or not to VR


Mr_Burns

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I know this is a very personal preference but I have come to a stage in my home cockpit build where I am really starting to consider VR.

 

 

I probably mainly play at my desktop games like Anno1800, slow paced city sims, then its DCS and I dont fly for 100's of hours.

 

 

I have all the parts for my pit except a 4k TV and the new PC which I have the money for.

 

 

 

My Pit will sit in a room away from our main house, the 4K TV I need for the Pit may get used every day, perhaps an hour or so, or maybe not.

 

 

 

My new PC I dont want to have permanently linked to a 4k TV I dont use if I can use it as my desktop so I am thinking about moving the computer to my pit just to play DCS when I want to, it doesnt sound great.

 

 

 

If I finish my pit in the current state I have a decent computer linked to a decent TV that doesn't get used much, or I start to move my PC and TV when I want to fly. I dont like the thought of it.

 

 

Finally, I just got really into dog fighting with guns and TIR5 is p1ssing me off with all the blind spots to the point I hate it.

 

So what am I left with? Well I need to upgrade the PC and have the money, I am going to do this.

 

 

I can donate my PC to my boy to add to his XBOX/PS4 and then PC needs.

 

 

 

I can play my city builders and strategies on a new monitor but get a VR headset for FPS, Racing and Flying...

 

 

Out of interest, I enjoy flying 1080p - how much worse is VR?


Edited by Mr_Burns
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The only way I can describe it is that when you put on the headset you no longer are sitting in front of a monitor you are sitting inside an aeroplane. It’s one of those things where people can be headstrong against it until they have tried it. My brother recently tried my rift, he is a dcs user and has flown aircraft. He was without exaggerating amazed. In fact he was not expecting the influence it could have on tricking the mind and was pessimistic about vr. He was particularly impressed when looking down from the side of the cockpit and the depth of perception and the feeling that you were indeed 20,000 ft in the air and those were his exact words. ,”you no longer feel you are in front of a monitor you feel like you are inside a cockpit”. Over time I admit you kind of get used to it and that initial amazement wears off. And I now long for some kind of motion influence, but what is telling is there is no way I could go back to a 2d monitor. And I would say virtually all people that have gone to VR say the same thing.

If you decide to do it you may experience some sickness. I did. Over a short period of time I overcome this and no longer experience the problem. Powerful pc giving good FPS is a necessity though.

This is my opinion of course and if people are still playing on monitors and still enjoying it with home build cockpits fair play to them. We all enjoy are own thing. If you’re not sure about splashing out on that kind of money see if there’s a way to experience VR in a flight simulator first to see if it’s your thing.


Edited by westr

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VR is so much worth it in dcs. Cannot beat the immersion.

I find it difficult to fly in 2d screen now even when I want to. Seeing in 3D world with VR has completely made screen monitor kind of like outdated tech.

 

 

Another plus for with VR is cables connections. I had trackir but never really used it much because of the cable connections coming from the PC. With VR, just one cable which at the same time took care microphone gear and cables as my VR headset has an in-built microphone.

 

Dogfighting in vr is fun, all the head movements to watch your target at your six, close to real life.

 

Yes, my vote is for VR.

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I enjoy flying 1080p - how much worse is VR?

Well sir, with a monitor, you are not "flying", even though 4K resolution is achieved. You are looking at a flat 2D image. The moment you set your eyes out of that monitor area, you see your walls room, the ceiling, your desk table. It doesn´t matter if monitor is 21", 49" curved or a massive projector.

On VR you are surrounded by 3D world. And the head tracking matching 1:1. That would be enough to convince you, but sadly there are no words, pics or youtube tutorials and examples to truly show VR awesomeness.

 

And of course you could use your HOTAS and different hardware(mouse, trackball, pushbuttons, TM MFDs, simpit parts...) on VR. Tricky, to begin with, then muscle memory kicks in.

My recommendation is go VR. It´s great for both simracing and flight simming. For FPS, you need a longer training period, shorter if the game is designed for VR such as Robo Recall or Superhot, rather than ports like Payday 2.

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Hi Mr Burns

Was in the same situatiojn a year ago: building a new rig mainly for Anno 1800, Age of Empires, stuff like this and my flightsims (X-Plane 11 and DCS) and researched a lot about playing on a 49" TV vs. VR and as I had a 4K 55" Samsung tv in my living room I decided to first build a powerfull rig and then try the TV. Making a long story short: buying a TV for my PC (which isn't located in the living room) was canceled and bought a Vive pro. As I'm really a fan of sharp and crisp visuals and like things like shadows, etc. I was really concerned that I made a bad decision.

First it was a little bit of a pain to get the thing configured and when it ran kind of smoothly I jumped into the hornet, was amazed by the immersion, applied full throttle, take off, couple of turns and ended up puking into a bag - or let's say it was close to it.

What's my conclusion one year later? As westr stated: the immersion is incredible and after getting used to VR after a couple of flights motion sickness is not a topic anymore. Although I'm not getting this sharp and crisp graphics I get on my 34" ASUS screen (Ibought in the meanwhile on sale for 200 bucks) I'd never go back to a screen / TrackIR setup. Only thing I still disklike is the screen door effect - hope to get a HP reverb soon or waiting for the Vive Cosmos (hope that this one will be as clear as the HP seems to be.

 

Therefor: even as a graphics junkie I'm fully pro VR

Modules and maps: all of them :doh:

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If you are unsure, get Rift S. Cheapest and yet maybe best you can get for DCS. As it has as well lowest PC specs requirements. You can even start with something like GTX 1060 level card to get a good performance so not so expensive upgrade.

 

Since Rift S, I can recommend VR as reading cockpit gauges is now possible.

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I agree with all the other sentiments expressed, been using VR since Jan 2017 and have not gamed on my monitor since. Absolutely love it, and I use it pretty much daily.

Currently using the Rift S, it is a great device - very easy to set up ( about 10 min) and works beautifully with no faffing about.

 

As you mentioned fps games I will also say with some of those using the Touch Controllers is an incredible experience.

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I don't fly for fun without VR, sure I have made some sacrifice with my settings, but the feeling of being immersed in the cockpit and the world is game changing for me.

 

Using a flat screen now feels wrong :)

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Really VR gives you the feeling of sitting in the plane. If you watch any of the real F18 pilots playing DCS they are in VR now. Biggest problem with a lot of headsets is the resolution and screen door effect. Screen Door Effect (SDE) is like looking through a window screen you see all of the pixels. Most headsets it is hard to see the instruments unless you lean in to look at them. Far off views have a lot of jagged edges also, think of playing in 480p.

 

My friend owns almost every headset out and I have tried them all in DCS and there are only two headsets that are clear in the cockpit as of right now. The first is the HP Reverb, second is the Samsung Odyssey Plus, and the Third is the Rift S. Rift S still had too much SDE for me, but it was clearer than most. Pimax 5k+ is nice for the FOV but I still had trouble reading gauges and it still had a lot of SDE. HP Reverb is the closest to a monitor at this time and is the clearest VR headset I have put on to date. As for the Index it still had too much SDE. I bought the Samsung Odyssey Plus on sale for $299 and have not regretted my purchase. With Steam VR SuperSampling set at 250%, I can read the A-10C CDU next to my right leg without leaning down, but it is still not 1080p quality more like 720p. With the HP Reverb it is 1080p quality. AS you can see I have no monitor in front of my setup. https://i.imgur.com/xQhFO87.jpg

 

As for a computer you will need at least a i5 6600k, 32 gb of Ram, and at least a 1080. For the Reverb you will need at least a 2080 or 1080 ti. Make sure you can return the headset if you do not like it.

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Short answer - do it!

 

I really underestimated how much of a difference VR would make. Having been a TrackIR user since the very first model and a user of various other tracking devices over the years - always looking for improvement I'd discounted the first generation of headsets for the clarity of the screens and the cost. With Windows Mixed Reality headsets becoming available with better screen technology I started to look at VR again but my PC wasn't up to it. Once I'd upgraded the Rift S arrived on the market and it made sense to me to dip my toe in the VR water and I'm so glad I did!

 

As I said I'd massively underestimated VR as I was thinking of it more along the lines of a better head tracking solution i.e. proper 1:1 movement unlike other devices where you still have to look at the screen. What I didn't factor in was the immersion of the stereo vision, the 3D, call it what you want and no video you will watch on YouTube captures that, its something you have to experience yourself. The first time I donned my Rift S in a sim it was in DCS World in the Spitfire and I'm not exaggerating when I say it was breath-taking. Turning my head and seeing everything just jutting out in glorious 3D , tipping my head to look around the canopy bars, looking at the light reflect off the rippled and worn paint - it was the closest thing to having your own personal open cockpit day at a museum. I got so immersed in this initial test that at one point I forgot myself and reached out to touch the gyro sight - it sounds silly I know but this was my first time in VR anywhere and its hard to put into words the immersion I felt.

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It's not worth the hit:

 

Worse FPS performance

Worse graphics compared to 4k

Worse tactical performance

 

I think in 5-10 years, assuming ED is able to redo both the graphics engine and simulation engine, DCS will be great in VR.

 

There are plenty of other companies that make great VR airplane simulations, and for them they have graphics/simulation engines that are more modern compared to ED's 1990s engine.

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iRacing is a totally different experience as well. You’ll find yourself looking for games in VR that are comparable to the games you play now. I’ve replaced my whole game library with VR. I played Skyrim last night for 3 hours without fast traveling just because ( a heavily modded) Tamriel is so beautiful to just wander through. The only game that I still play in 2D is City:Skylines. I’m hopeful that will soon be VR compatible.

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It's not worth the hit:

 

Worse FPS performance

Worse graphics compared to 4k

Worse tactical performance

 

I think in 5-10 years, assuming ED is able to redo both the graphics engine and simulation engine, DCS will be great in VR.

 

There are plenty of other companies that make great VR airplane simulations, and for them they have graphics/simulation engines that are more modern compared to ED's 1990s engine.

 

What are your computer specs and what headset are you using?

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As a corollary, read the other comments in this thread.

 

Nowhere do they say they function more effectively in VR compared to traditional displays, they focus more on the gimmick of immersion.

 

If you can't read cockpit instruments easily, if you can't spot targets around you easily, then you're functioning more like a passenger on an amusement park ride than a pilot in an F/A-18 in actual combat.

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What are your computer specs and what headset are you using?

 

9900k @5.1ghz

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Valve index

 

Baseline is Rog 4k 144hz HDR monitor.

 

 

You can turn all the graphics settings down for true potato vision, but I doubt that's what you're hoping to accomplish.

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What are your computer specs and what headset are you using?

 

It doesn’t worth the try with remi. He is anti-VR.

 

I would say that CV1 and the like (I own one) doesn’t worth it in DCS (many people will disagree though).

I upgraded to Rift S: with Super Sample at 1.5 I’m pretty happy. I can read the cockpit. I can spot targets. VID is later than on screen yet. Bet we are cheating with zoom on screen.

 

Yet I would agree it isn’t for everyone, and you need to learn to do some things differently.

Biggest bonus is that you’re on Scale 1.

Handling is much easier (take off, landing, formation flying, in flight refuelling, hovering with Harrier...)

Seeing objects is a bit more difficult. But hey...I can still gun down cars in the road in fast jets :D

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Immersion is no gimmick. The depth perception provided by VR, as well as the spatial awareness are everything when it comes to instinctively knowing which way to point your jet when you're doing everything from dogfighting to evading enemy guns and missiles. I have the HP Reverb, and I have no performance issues. I can evade ground fire and instantly come around on the thing that shot at me and kill it as if the jet is an extension of my own hands. There! There's a statement of functioning more effectively in VR! :D

 

Go for it, Mr. Burns! The amount of usage you are planning (which is pretty much in line with most of us I think) makes VR an excellent choice. Might want to wait until version 2 of the Reverb comes out, but I have a version 1 and haven't had any of the issues with it that HP is working on resolving. VR is also going to be the least intrusive on your other living space.


Edited by eaglecash867

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It's not worth the hit:

 

Worse FPS performance

Worse graphics compared to 4k

Worse tactical performance

 

I think in 5-10 years, assuming ED is able to redo both the graphics engine and simulation engine, DCS will be great in VR.

 

There are plenty of other companies that make great VR airplane simulations, and for them they have graphics/simulation engines that are more modern compared to ED's 1990s engine.

 

Completely agree. I have tried a Samsung Odissey, and it was heavy, uncomfortable, far worse graphics. Maybe in 5 years.....

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I think Reverb is the first HMD that gave me the feeling of 1080 resolution monitor. I could legitimately consider working with other apps like Word, Excel, or browse using the HMD. I wouldn't even think about it with CV, P5K+. I don't have Rift S or Index, so I wouldn't know.

 

I don't think pits and VR are mutually exclusively. I prefer reaching out and touching the physical switch. So it was important to me that with Reverb, I could take out the nose pad so I can *SEE* through the bridge of my nose. It doesn't break the immersion for me and I can operate MFDs, switches.

 

P5K+s wider FoV is VERY nice. But not at the cost of lower resolution and quirky software performance.

 

Reverb doesn't take any performance hit because I reduce the PD (pixel density (SS) within DCS, it's built it) to 1.0. The native (higher) resolution of Reverb makes it a mute point.

 

I do find it amusing that most people who are against VR never tried it. Or are competitive gamers looking for every edge, like TiR's unnatural panning capabilities.

 

IIRC, you live down under? I think I read that Reverb is stating to ship in AU/NZ. Maybe you can give it a shot, and if you hate it, make sure it's returnable.

 

ED has made great strides in improving VR experience. And when technologies like vulkan are released, I'm sure it'll get even better.

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ED has made great strides in improving VR experience. And when technologies like vulkan are released, I'm sure it'll get even better.

 

Like the promised 50% VR performance improvement that never materialized?

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There is no comparison, since it's 2D versus 3D. Completely different as you can imagine.

 

Basically there are 2 camps:

 

First camp are graphics fundamentalists, they want the best possible graphics with the highest resolution possible. Eye candy before immersion. And/or they are competitive, and it's way easier dogfighting or bombing when you have almost infinite zoom options and trackir where you only have to move your head a few cm's.

 

Second camp is all about immersion and realism. They want the feeling of flying, being there inside the cockpit and the world, looking around, watching their actual six when dogfighting. Being able to have depth perception and 1:1 scaling helps alot when doing that pilot shit (formation, aa refuel, carrier landings, helo flying, turn in points for bombing, etc).

 

Most people who are seeking immersion and the sense of actual flying are never going back to 2D pancake and keep flying in VR.

 

It's to be expected that people who like eye candy and resolution will not like VR.

 

I, like many, won't be going back to 2D pancake. It's just not enough anymore since I've tried VR.


Edited by dawgie79
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It doesn’t worth the try with remi. He is anti-VR.

 

 

I'm not anti VR, I play 75% of my games currently in VR, just not DCS because of performance and graphics problems.

 

Steam has a huge library of VR games that are a lot of fun, and most importantly, FPS at 120hz.

 

The rest of the time I play DCS in 4k. There's nothing like feeling like you're in the Hornet cockpit and functioning like a real Hornet pilot in glorious 4k clarity.

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I've been flying with 3 2560X1440 monitors and just got my first VR headset about 2 weeks ago which is the HP Reverb Pro. After the first week of use I don't think I'll ever go back to the triple monitors for DCS or X Plane. My frame rate with the Reverb is very similar to the 7680X1440 I was running with the 3 monitors and Track IR but it's so much more realistic and is very similar to a 1080P 2D monitor and I don't need my reading glasses while flying.

 

Just my 2 cents.


Edited by Shortcut

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I've been flying with 3 2560X1440 monitors and just got my first VR headset about 2 weeks ago which is the HP Reverb Pro. After the first week of use I don't think I'll ever go back to the triple monitors for DCS or X Plane. My frame rate with the Reverb is very similar to the 7680X1440 I was running with the 3 monitors and Track IR but it's so much realistic and is very similar to a 1080P 2D monitor.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

That's exacly the point: "very similar to a 1080P 2D monitor"

is not NEARLY enough resolution.

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