Struggling with flying this module (Not about the trim)

Greetings, all. Was hoping to get a few flight tips for the 109, specifically for dogfighting. Below is a bit of an elaboration.

 

Recently, I purchased the I-16, by OctopusG. It was my first WW2-ish module in DCS, and it's amazing. So much so that it jump-started my love for WW2 combat flight sims, like the good ol' Il-2 days.

 

That said, I decided to buy they Bf 109 K-4. After some quick time spent learning the startup and typical flight parameters, as well as its trim peculiarities; I decided to give dogfighting a go and was shocked to find I was getting shredded every time, without exception. It felt like the opponent (Spitfire AI on 'good') turned faster, had significantly lower stall speeds, and on a whole, managed to get behind me within the first two dogfight turns. It seemed, whenever I tried to match the AI's turn rate, I spun out with a right roll, and had to return the stick back to neutral to gain any response from the elevator controls, thus loosing the edge. Playing it gentle almost always put me so far behind that the AI was on my tail in no time.

 

Contrast that to my experience in the I-16. It was a dream to fly from the get-go, despite the lack of any trim. With it, I've managed to beat 'Excellent' AI in all WW2 aircraft; and consistently, at that. Sure, sometimes the conflict would drag out 10 or even 20 minutes (*cough* Bf 109 AI *cough*), but ultimately things slowly turned my way.

 

So, simply put, what am I getting wrong in the Bf 109? How do I maintain responsiveness in tight, medium/low-energy turns? Any tips are welcome.

Are you using the MW-50? That is essential for exceeding the performance of the Spit.

Also, are you keeping an eye on the ball to ensure that your turns are coordinated?

Have not been using the MW-50. I suspected it would play a roll, I just figured, due to it's limited usage, and due to my oil temperature nestled against the upper limit indicator during the latter parts of a dog fight, that its use was probably best avoided.

 

 

As for keeping my eye on the ball, yea. I got a decent amount of experience with that, primarily from Il-2. And, like I said, in the I-16, I have no issues, despite the obvious acceleration and aerodynamic drawbacks of a pre-war aircraft. Though, I'm willing to attribute those 'victories' to the AI not knowing how to deal with an agile, slow-flying aircraft.

 

EDIT: Corrected 'post-war' to 'pre-war'.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Cheetah7798

My understanding is that the MW-50 also provides a cooling effect. Try it out in an instant mission - I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised at the performance increase.

Thanks for the response. I'll be sure to give it a go.

The AI is using a simplified flightmodel, this is giving them a big advantage.

But after a while you'll know their moves and beat them easily, it's just training.

Cheetah, with or without MW50, I think the main problem is taking a late version of 109 not meant to be flown in tight dogfights against a plane which was specifically made to be flown in tight dogfights.

Spit IX is indeed more maneuvreable in these conditions, as it was in real life. But that's the only advantage it has, plus a good climbrate, at least down low. In everything else - speed especially, late German hotrods are superior.

 

Of course, as mentioned above, rudimentary (to put it very mildly) flight models, flight routines and damage models of AI planes in DCS make offline combat in this sim quite pointless in my opinion, at least for the time being. We've been told and shown improvements are coming, however.

...Contrast that to my experience in the I-16. It was a dream to fly from the get-go, despite the lack of any trim. With it, I've managed to beat 'Excellent' AI in all WW2 aircraft...

That's simply because the AI are super-performing but stupid. They engage in slow turning fight against the I-16 which is the ultimate slow-turn fighter. With the Bf-109 you must never get slow. Make sure you have energy (altitude and speed) and attack. If you miss, take some distance without losing energy and attack again. I tend to attack the I-16 from well above. It takes a few runs but I always get her and she never gets me. Another thing to avoid: don't attack the I-16 head-on (unless you fly the Anton). She has terrible fire power (not sure if that's realistic).

Excellent Ai = nothing.

Try excellent player :)

Thanks for the answers. I am glad to hear that it's my employment of the aircraft that is the culprit. Since the post I've managed to get a handful of wins against the spitfire in a similar fashion to what is stated above. I.E. keeping my energy up and avoiding tight turns.

 

 

Once again, thanks. :D

Yea, I know the AI are hit or miss. Similar to any flight sims, really. Simultaneously both impossibly-difficult and unfathomably stupid.

 

I never really attribute any feelings of satisfaction to beating the AI, I was merely using it as a comparison between the I-16 and Bf 109. Still a flawed comparison, but gave some perspective all the same.

In case you were not aware the 109 turns better to the left than the right; having dog fought a couple of quite capable 109 drivers online in my Spit, they in low level left hand turning fight were able to match my best turn, I presume with MW50, a healthy dose of nose up trim and I suspect the judicious use of some flaps - was certainly an eye opener for me!

In case you were not aware the 109 turns better to the left than the right; having dog fought a couple of quite capable 109 drivers online in my Spit, they in low level left hand turning fight were able to match my best turn, I presume with MW50, a healthy dose of nose up trim and I suspect the judicious use of some flaps - was certainly an eye opener for me!

I can confirm this from flying the Bf-109 myself. I suppose it's due to the terrific propeller torque. When you get a bit slow, it becomes difficult to turn right at all. Therefore, if I have to make a tight right turn, if I can afford to lose a bit of altitude, I actually reduce throttle and that helps. It would be absolutely counterproductive to go full throttle in that situation. When you turn left, the propeller torque helps you so full throttle can be ok. I find left turns more difficult to coordinate though. I'm more comfortable in right turns and that's bad...

I can confirm this from flying the Bf-109 myself. I suppose it's due to the terrific propeller torque. When you get a bit slow, it becomes difficult to turn right at all. Therefore, if I have to make a tight right turn, if I can afford to lose a bit of altitude, I actually reduce throttle and that helps. It would be absolutely counterproductive to go full throttle in that situation. When you turn left, the propeller torque helps you so full throttle can be ok. I find left turns more difficult to coordinate though. I'm more comfortable in right turns and that's bad...

 

Isn't this apply to every prop?

I guess he means it's just more noticeable in 109 than in other DCS wabirds.

I guess he means it's just more noticeable in 109 than in other DCS wabirds.

 

Because tiny tail :) bf109 looks so funny with this little tail :P

Here I am, absolutely amazed at the huge influence torque has over the Bf 109's flight characteristics, and yet it never occurred to me that it was the reason I was having trouble turning right at low speeds :doh:

 

 

Thank's guys. This has been really insightful.

Here I am, absolutely amazed at the huge influence torque has over the Bf 109's flight characteristics, and yet it never occurred to me that it was the reason I was having trouble turning right at low speeds :doh:

 

 

Thank's guys. This has been really insightful.

 

But don't worry, almost every p-51 or spitfire will crank right to avoid bf109

On MP server i turn 99% right in bf109 :P

Edited March 1, 2020 by grafspee

Have not been using the MW-50. I suspected it would play a roll, I just figured, due to it's limited usage, and due to my oil temperature nestled against the upper limit indicator during the latter parts of a dog fight, that its use was probably best avoided.

 

 

As for keeping my eye on the ball, yea. I got a decent amount of experience with that, primarily from Il-2. And, like I said, in the I-16, I have no issues, despite the obvious acceleration and aerodynamic drawbacks of a pre-war aircraft. Though, I'm willing to attribute those 'victories' to the AI not knowing how to deal with an agile, slow-flying aircraft.

 

EDIT: Corrected 'post-war' to 'pre-war'.

 

Don't worry with the MW-50 usage, you can theoretically use it for 10 minutes and at least in my experience, you are not going to have much temperature problems. Yes the needle will hit the max temp quickly but it will stay there.

 

Just hit max throttle (remember to turn the MW-50 switch on) and climb, get some distance, level, get some speed and onto the enemy's 6. The K-4 was not meant to dofight, just boom and zoom tactics and its speed and ridiculous power to weight ration allows the K-4's pilot dictate the rules of the fight, you can choose when and where to fight every time whereas the Spitfire is a very good defensive fighter so do not get engaged with them. Dive into them and if you miss or he notices you and goes defensive use the energy to climb back and wait for another opportunity. If you apply this discipline you will be very hard to shoot down.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Al-Azraq

Oil temp thermostat actuator starts opening oil cooler doors at near max oil temp, i've never exceeded oil temp in bf-109, I would worry only about coolant temp.

We must remember that those planes aren't civilian planes, they are set for best performance, If i remember correctly oil conduct heat 8 times slower then water, expect that oil temp will have significant lag compare to coolant, Long high power climbs will be an issue for oil temp.

Edited March 2, 2020 by grafspee

In case you were not aware the 109 turns better to the left than the right; having dog fought a couple of quite capable 109 drivers online in my Spit, they in low level left hand turning fight were able to match my best turn, I presume with MW50, a healthy dose of nose up trim and I suspect the judicious use of some flaps - was certainly an eye opener for me!

 

The spit 9 out turns the 109 in both left and right turns. Not so much if you are diving and turning but level turn or climbing turn the spit is hands down faster.

 

The 109 can turn with the spit 9 in a dive if he reduces the throttle.

Don't worry with the MW-50 usage, you can theoretically use it for 10 minutes and at least in my experience, you are not going to have much temperature problems. Yes the needle will hit the max temp quickly but it will stay there.

 

The 109K4 can run full throttle with MW50 non stop until it runs out of MW50. Which is about 20 minutes at full throttle(provided your keeping your air speed above 300kmh).

The spit 9 out turns the 109 in both left and right turns. Not so much if you are diving and turning but level turn or climbing turn the spit is hands down faster.

 

The 109 can turn with the spit 9 in a dive if he reduces the throttle.

 

Depends. If you have an aggresive Spitfire pilot who turns on the tip of a stall, he turns better than a 109. If you have a cautious Spitfire pilot against an aggresive 109 Pilot, the 109 can outturn the Spitfire in a level turn.

Depends. If you have an aggresive Spitfire pilot who turns on the tip of a stall, he turns better than a 109. If you have a cautious Spitfire pilot against an aggresive 109 Pilot, the 109 can outturn the Spitfire in a level turn.

 

I see more spitfires turning to tight and bleeding to much speed rather then turning to little. Both obviously give an enemy an edge, but that goes with all aircraft. In a sustained turn fight you need to find your best sustained turn rate.

Dogfighting is like chess or GO.. even if you know how to move the pieces you still don't know how to play the game.