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Roots of problem for heavy stutters and low performance in DCS World!


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:helpsmilie: :D I found the roots of problem for this troublesome performance issue. :( I got the same problem with heavy stutters freeze frame during rocket barraging either from my Ka-50 or just nearby AI Mi-24, or many ground artillery units attacking with many explosion on battlefield. Same thing happened for many aircraft take off in the same airport with player vehicle start up as well.

 

the roots came from the particle physics simulation in the game engine, the developer did not properly program the particle, smoke and explosion physics with the Nvidia PhysX.

 

the current DCS World not compatible with the Nvidia PhysX, I don't know how was AMD ATI user? :dunno:

 

I tested it in Ka-50 Quick mission "Attack on Insurgent", with just Nvidia 's PhysX settings selected at CPU. Massive performance stutters was reduced during rocket or vikhr missile launched.

 

but this did not solve the whole problem, selected CPU as PhysX processor cause the smoke, explosion, to be in poor quality and the performance stutters will return in big map like campaign mission.

 

the next thing to do beside Nvidia PhysX was to check your motherboard BIOS 's processor speed setting, I set at 3.8Ghz but I noticed the processor run at 4.0-4.2Ghz in the windows while starting up the DCS World program. To check the processor speed in windows, run task manager and click performance tab before start the DCS World program. (or press ATL + TAB)

 

the windows run the processor beyond the configured speed setting in the BIOS was causing higher heat and turn up slower performance. (just like the car engine run with wrong fuel map)

 

to fix it, go to windows 's power option advanced setting, processor power management, set the processor maximum speed according to the BIOS, tuning the maximum processor state from 100% to 93% or else lower or higher (I use at 93%) depend on user processor and DCS World running condition.

 

check the processor speed while starting up the DCS World program with the windows task manager. Adjust the Maximum processor state % until the windows task manager show correct processor speed during the DCS World program starting up. :D :joystick: :pilotfly: :smartass: :thumbup:

 

so, this is not the shader problem or any computer hardware problem.

the game developer should be able to troubleshoot the problem now and fix the particle section of the game engine, add PhysX Flex or PhysX support would be great :thumbup:

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As a computer engineer I disagree. Modern CPUs run at a speed range rather than set speed. However this statement disregards any manual overclocking.

As for nVidia PhysX -- particle effects I agree that it would be awesome if DCS took advantage of all available graphics standards, but again what you describe is not affecting my setup so it is not root cause.

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Could the problem be in the usage of our CPU Cores? (Just speculating)

 

In Normandy (Deferred Shading on) no ground units engaged, or moving on the map, produces nice smooth flight. Add some ground units and I see stutters. Are the computations for the ground units (threaded commands) getting baulked in the execution of the code?

 

On the other hand, if I just have air to air action, there doesn't seem to be any stutter. Are the air to air threads better optimised?

 

I know it's much more complicated than this! My GTX 980 is always maxed out in 2.1. 100% GPU load and 100% memory use. I am even thinking of upgrading to a 1080 with 8 Gb? If it's a GPU bottleneck?

 

My suspicion is on the threads executed on one core. But here we need a programmer to comment.

 

I also wonder why NTTR is much smoother than Normandy?

 

I hope when all the maps get amalgamated, the stutters are a thing of the past?

 

Regards.

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What you're describing shouldn't be a cause of stutters. DCS does not use Nvidia PhysX (as far as I know) and the cpu clock speed ramping up above its advertised frequency is done automatically by the hardware within reasonable temperature limits.

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In my experience, the effect of multiple rockets, or MLRS or cluster bombs is only one source of potential instantaneous frame loss. I've seen many people contribute to the discussions, it's all valid feedback, but I'm 100% certain there are multiple overlapping issues in terms of performance, stuttering, spawn lag and related symptoms, all with different root causes. Some of these can be dealt with by configuration, but some not, and its the large scale fundamental issues like SAM's in missions, and general server behaviour that are currently the hot topic on this front.

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I uninstalled the DCS World and re-download and install it, I played Warthunder too, I always use PhysX processor on Nvidia GPU in the Nvidia graphics setting to play Warthunder. Just now the newly reinstalled DCS World became heavy stutters and low performance after I switch to play DCS World from Warthunder with the PhysX processor switched to CPU from GPU.

 

I trouble shoot it for some hours and found that the PC need to be restart after change the PhysX processor to CPU in the Nvidia control panel.

 

After restarted, with the PC connected to internet,

 

you need to start "command prompt" in administrator to do

"dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth" restart PC after complete

 

next, go to command prompt again in administrator to do

"sfc /scannow" restart PC after complete

 

ta da... :thumbup:, still got stutters but much less... :D :(

 

so, the problem is the game engine did not programmed to be compatible with Nvidia PhysX. The physics particle code work compatible with CPU, but CPU was lots weaker than GPU.

 

the Warthunder game do not have any problem.

 

-in DCS World graphics setting, untick the V-synch and tick the disable aero interface-


Edited by JOKERACTS
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Just for your information sfc /scannow performs an integrity check of your windows files. All it does is just check files, it doesn't actually do anything. If it were to find missing or corrupted data you would need to type an additional command line to initiate a repair. In case the repair would fail for some reason you would then have to use dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth. Long story short it has nothing to do with DCS.


Edited by Nooch

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i5-2500, GTX760 2GB, 8GB ram. A lot of stutters mainly in missions with higher number of AI units. Upgraded to 16GB ram and i have 0 stutters.

 

You will not fix stutters, they exist because of how engine handle objects and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

A lot of people say it's CPU but as you can see, i am running old i5 with no OC and have no stutters. Problem was RAM.. more objects + full VRAM + full RAM = loading directly from HDD which is a lot slower than RAM (some people fix this by upgrading to SSD instead of buying more RAM)..

 

So yeah, make sure you have enough VRAM and RAM, there's nothing more to it.

 

Meanwhile I upgraded to i5-7600 and GTX1060 6GB, performance is the same but i can set higher preload radius and tree/bush distance

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Eagle Dynamics need to do a direct code comparison (diff) between 1.5.7 and 1.5.6 .

 

In 1.5.6, My mission ran 1100 units on the map, 30-40 always moving/shooting and it ran incredibly smooth!!!!! (I do, code in some magic with zone detection and turning AI on and off depending on when the grd units need it to help the engine)

 

Now in 1.5.7, The mission has a 3 sec freeze with the EXACT settings, To aleviate this and make my server playable, 2 units moving, removed ships and most radar, turned off clouds, weather and all wind, dropped my units down to 450..... when I jump into a helicopter I can STILL detect the bumping every 3 secs (runtime issue! physics loop or radar scan loop), but its less pronounced because I am BARELY using the game engines power.

 

Theres also a NASTY memory leak in the game atm, I have caught my 1.5.7 server using upwards of 18-19 gigs of memory in a 8 hour timespan (I restart the mission every 8 hours). They definately have some nasty issues in the game engine they introduced in the 1.5.6 -> 1.5.7 upgrade.. (if you can call it that...)

 

1.5.7 also introduced NASTY lag stutters when anyone ever enters an aircraft (certain ones worse like mig-21 and viggen), and sometimes when they change skins(the changing skin models lag might be fixed)

 

On the other hand, I love the ability to change skins in the aircraft now lol

 

The quicker we get to 2.5 and drop the duel game versions the better, I call all of this 'growing pains' , but I would of rather stayed on the 1.5.6 performance and wait for the big update than to have the game behave like this.


Edited by Drexx

Developer of DDCS MP Engine, dynamicdcs.com

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=208608

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the Gori Valley mission has 1300 units on the battle scene, 60 ground units running simulaneously, it runs 8 logical missions using automatic detection and dynamic A2G and A2A tasking and it ran incredibly smooth.

It has several airborne AI units, helicopters, planes and has ongoing A2A battles. As is demonstrated on a couple of videos on DCS version 1.5.6.

 

In DCS version 1.5.7, this mission runs terribly. It was the mission that I used to demonstrate the reported stuttering thread.

 

Now we are a couple of versions and a new beta further and where are the fixes?

 

Then i suggested to do a roll-back to 1.5.6, and run 1.5.7 in BETA till ALL urgent problems are fixed that are reported.

 

But that suggestion got rejected.

 

OKAY. But how long can ED still motivate this going on like this?

When do we get our simulator back?

 

I moved to DCS 2.1 developing a new mission. But helas, unfortunately, the stuttering and performance decrease is also much noticeable now since the last updates on 2.1

 

So my question is... Can we please consider to rollback to 1.5.6, and move 1.5.7 to BETA until this performance problem is fixed?

 

FC


Edited by FlightControl

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BREAKTROUGH!

 

I got breaktrough! from last few hours ago,

 

I decided not to give-up and continue hunt down the roots in deep, now I understand what exactly happened to this trouble. Not the game engine problem, the game engine work really good :thumbup:, so on I decided to switch back to use Nvidia PhysX. :P

 

there got some bug too, the other part of trouble was the extreme spike surge in processing load. The spike surge happened during the multiple rocket launch (usually 10-20x rocket) from any vehicle (helicopter, fighter, ground attack plane, rocket artillery....etc)

 

current modern computer hardware, CPU processor and GPU processor was work on "adaptive" power saving function. suddenly 20x rockets launch in the same time in the simulator, processing need for the 20x smoke, flame, lighting was spike surging high rocket! :doh: :book: :huh:

 

the DCS World did not show make use of Nvidia PhysX but the Nvidia PhysX do process the particle lighting and physics as well.

 

at first I had worked on the fix files and uploaded it, you must download and install the fix files into your DCS World before it can be fix. check the attached screenshot for detail.

 

check here for my files if it was ready to be download:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/?CREATED_BY=JOKERACTS&set_filter=Y

 

after you downloaded and installed the fixed files, go to Nvidia control panel and set the setting according to the screenshot attached here, then restart the PC and enter the BIOS, at bios disable some processor function as attached screenshot here. Then boot up the PC to windows, tune the processor power management as what I said before, turn on Game mode, close all any taskbar icon from 3rd party except windows 's program icon before start the game.

 

make sure you have good cooling for the CPU and GPU, should not use OEM CPU cooler.

 

beside this, I also have other fix in my download, the Ka-50 cockpit rotor sound distortion fix from coronaman and afterburner 2.0 fix from werewolf. :thumbup::smartass:

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Edited by JOKERACTS
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ED has never and likely never will use PhysX, it's a Proprietary Physics Engine, they use their own Engine which does not limit customers to nVidia GPU's Only.

 

nVidia PhysX Setting has ZERO to do w/ DCS as it's not being used.

 

if changing it to CPU increases Performance, it's because you are now unlocking the part of the GPU the Driver Reserved for PhysX to be user by another application.

 

 

AS for CPU Speed, Higher is Better, if you are running 4.1GHz booting windows, and having to throttle it, there's a good chance you are over heating and throttling the CPU when Gaming, or your overclock is unstable.

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I had tested for many times, just follow my procedure and it confirmed FIX!, believe me go on for the try after my FIX files ready to be download and released by the moderator!

 

JOKERACTS, I understand you may have seen some improvements on a certain area.

 

The issue at play here has nothing to do with hardware at all. Nothing.

 

The performance issue is the gaming engine logic which is not optimal.

This is not about graphics, This is not about physics.

 

This is about running the sim on one core and the current version has issues doing this in an optimal way.

 

I would take the explanation of skatezilla for granted.

 

Sorry to disappoint you maybe, but thanks for your research.

Interesting pictures by the way! If you can find a way to discover how well the CPU is utilized...

That would really help... But for that we should profile the logic and process per CPU cycle.

 

Sven

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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I always suspect rendering the sea under the ground.

 

Once a time, there was a trick to move the camera to under the ground, and you could see sea waving there.

 

This image has led me to a thought: Why is the sea being rendered, although we don't see it?

 

A friend gave an answer for that, but I think I didn't satisfied, because I don't remember the answer.

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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I always suspect rendering the sea under the ground.

 

Once a time, there was a trick to move the camera to under the ground, and you could see sea waving there.

 

This image has led me to a thought: Why is the sea being rendered, although we don't see it?

 

A friend gave an answer for that, but I think I didn't satisfied, because I don't remember the answer.

 

Prolly because the Sea Level was one Large Poly w/ a Water Shader Applied to it to save polygons?

 

 

I had tested for many times, just follow my procedure and it confirmed FIX!, believe me go on for the try after my FIX files ready to be download and released by the moderator!

 

 

 

Again, PhysX has Zero to do with DCS, it's not programmed to use it at all so settings dont matter.

 

Turning off C6 and C1E though might have helped, as Cores tend to go into a lower 1.4 Ghz State when not used, and if the Process Manager in Windows likes to jump processes from Core to Core, then it's possible it pushed DCS.exe to a Core that was at 1.4 Ghz Idleing or Parked completely, causing huge stutter while the core was unparked and ramped up to full speed.

 

Disabling C1E and C6 etc stops the CPU from idling Cores at 1.4Ghz or lower and from Parking them (setting them to 0Ghz)

 

Why did you block off you're model number? lol

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the fix files not yet up for download, check here:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/?CREATED_BY=JOKERACTS&set_filter=Y

 

so, it don't work without the fixed files.

 

I had tried with PhysX GPU and CPU, I noticed the smoke trail and model lighting was slightly better when set PhysX to GPU. I had tried it for many times.

 

I got mine fixed, just say 90% solved, 10% left was the 10-20x rockets barraging from Mi-24, or any vehicle that launched 10-20x + rockets, shutter / frame freeze will occur for short period and recover in a lot more faster.


Edited by JOKERACTS
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The issue at play here has nothing to do with hardware at all. Nothing.

 

The performance issue is the gaming engine logic which is not optimal.

This is not about graphics, This is not about physics.

 

This is about running the sim on one core and the current version has issues doing this in an optimal way.

 

 

That is my main problem with the DCS. We don't know what is exactly so demanding in it? Some machines top of the class can just crawl with terrible FPS, while some older (today some would say even terrible like 4-core CPU and 740Ti level cards!) does very well in 4K.

 

Would be nice to get to know more about what exactly are using so much CPU? Is it the flight modeling? The aircraft hydraulics etc simulation? A AI logic?

 

As I could think many many ways how to utilize a 8-core CPU instead now using one for everything else than sound, meaning in worst cases we use only a ~12% of our computer performance, and limiting everything because that.

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That is my main problem with the DCS.

Would be nice to get to know more about what exactly are using so much CPU? Is it the flight modeling? The aircraft hydraulics etc simulation? A AI logic?

 

As I could think many many ways how to utilize a 8-core CPU instead now using one for everything else than sound, meaning in worst cases we use only a ~12% of our computer performance, and limiting everything because that.

 

Yup.

 

It depends... How to get it explained in a way to make it structured...

 

There's are a couple Golden rules when it comes to efficient CPU utilization.

 

* statics don't consume CPU.

* late activated units dont consume CPU.

* stationary units CPU utilization depends on the detection and attack instruments it has...

* visible detection is performant. It kicks in when units are a short distance (like 8 to 10km away from each other)...

* G2A radar detection is currently killing CPU due to a bug in beta and current release.

* ir detection is ok.

* A2G detection works okay. Note that a reaper or an su-34 can detect a lot of ground units... May slow down things...

* ....

* Radars are important. The more radar capable units on the battlefield, the more CPU usage! The more radar capable units from each coalition, you'll get cardinal cross product logic where each unit is detecting others...

* moving... The more units move, the more CPU...

* ground attack... Put 60 blue abram tanks in front of 60 red t-90s, and the sim falls flat. Units with less instruments are more efficient, and can handle more units in battle...

* moving and battling is the most CPU consuming....

* airbases.... Some airbases are really CPU ineffective.... I have a list...

* helicopters are very CPU consuming, especially the ones with lots of instruments, like the Mi-28N and the AH-64D... They have... Ground scanning radars...

* some planes too, like AWACS, su-34, ...

 

As a golden rule:

* use statics when possible.

* ai off when possible

* be careful with radars, especially long range ones.

* dont use specific airbases, like gudauta.

* avoid movement of ground units

* avoid massive face to face battles

* shut off radars when not needed

 

Did I forget something? Probably...

Am on mobile now, but when I get home will try to write this up better...

Lots of stuff to share...

 

You can have a mission with 1300 units running smooth...

.

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  • ED Team

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what GPU / CPU and how much RAM do you have?

 

I ask because if you are doing tests and getting good result knowing your system specification will give the results more meaning.

 

I am not convinced about this.

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I got 3rd BREAKTROUGH!!!

 

check here for the video demonstration: :smartass::thumbup::joystick::pilotfly:

 

"

 

I still did not give up and go on further, I got another breakthrough, DCS World Ka-50 simulator run on Nvidia driver version 385.41 and GeForce_Experience_v3.9.0.97 as recorder.

 

now it about 95% fixed, still got some stutter and frame freeze for some special artillery shell, it can be see in the video.

 

yesterday, during I uploading the Video, I got some time to work on for the Afterburner sound mod from WineNB, where the sound was tainted with distortion. I got it uploaded now.

 

I still go on to solving the remaining problem, the Mi-24 rocket barraging and cluster munition..:book: , it could take time if possible to be solve.

 

that was not DCS 1.5.7.9891 Update 3 yet :huh:

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Edited by JOKERACTS
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