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having a hard time with the hard landing


Antmf

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Can anyone help me with this landing? I can't for the life of me get it. I know there is no ILS but the tutorial tells me to look at the HSI and the bars don't move there either. Also how do I do I see that runway? It seems to pop up at last minute. Please help...


Edited by Antmf
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  • ED Team

Hi

 

which aircraft are you flying in flaming cliffs?

 

If it is the A-10a page 48 of the A-10A manual should help you

 

You will find the manuals here DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Flaming Cliffs\Doc

 

hope that helps


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Do you mean "Landing - Difficult", which is the Su-27, in bad weather at night? The other one for the Su-33 is on the carrier.

 

The SU-27 mission takes you on a path between waypoint 0 and 1 near Beslan, meaning that you will be heading roughly in the direction to pick up the Return path when prompted. Before you get to that point, use the radio and request a landing at Beslan - if you don't contact them, the runway lights will not come on. Also, keep your speed down to what the HUD suggests, drop your gear, use your landing lights set to FAR, and keep above 600m until you are on the approach. The HSI does not give you anything useful in this mission. However, the ADI will guide you until you can see the runway. Use the Horizontal and vertical lines to keep on track until you can see the runway, the Horizontal line will drop as you approach the outer marker. Now you can see the runway hopefully, and start to descend at a decent angle. The Horizontal and vertical tick marks on the ADI are usefulfor correcting while you are a way out, but rely on your view of the runway and the long localiser needle for your heading. Landing is another matter - get jiggly with the rudder and stick that crosswing is a pita. Not only that, you are told to input rudder left and bank right, at a point where the winds might be different. Try the opposite initially and see if that helps, then use left rudder and right bank as suggested once past the inner marker and nearer touchdown.


Edited by mkiii
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Thank you very much this mission is a pain in the neck literally I don't know how fast to descend when I do descend I feel like I'm dropping too quick. Being inexperienced and all I don't know what the rate of descent should be and when I do see the runway what should my altitude be? And last but not least when I do see the runway what should be my rate of descent and that wind oh my God LOL.

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Antmf said:
Thank you very much this mission is a pain in the neck literally I don't know how fast to descend when I do descend I feel like I'm dropping too quick. Being inexperienced and all I don't know what the rate of descent should be and when I do see the runway what should my altitude be? And last but not least when I do see the runway what should be my rate of descent and that wind oh my God LOL.

 

Your rate of descent should be 3-5 m/s. If you’re following the large and small circle HUD cues, you’ll be at roughly 5 m/s. You should be crossing the outer marker at 330-350 km/hr and the inner marker at 310-320. Be at 280-290 km/hr just before the threshold. Don’t remember at what point you spot the runway in that mission but, at 1 km out (crossing inner marker) you should be at about 80-100 (I think) m height above the ground.

 

EDIT: The airbase lighting now works differently. At the time that training was created, the airbases were lit automatically as it grew dark. Now they only light when you call inbound. So be sure to make that call. Otherwise you will never spot the runway.

 

EDIT 2: Here's a quick and dirty look at that tutorial. It wasn't until I jumped into the pit that I realized how long it's been since I last spent any quality time in this aircraft. This is far from perfect but it might help to see it, anyway, for the speeds, altitudes, etc. My internet connection is only a bit better than dialup. So it'll be several hours before this finishes uploading to YouTube. I'll be fast asleep by then:

 

 


Edited by Ironhand
Edited to change video to my public one

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It may be cheating, but try loading the mission into the mission editor and save it in you user missions as a new file after editing all the start times to daylight - say 14:00 rather than midnight. You will be able to see what should be happening a bit better before trying the original again.

Note that you have to look at all the mission parameters. Just editing the mission start time isn't enough.

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The way this tutorial is set up, it really isn’t as effective a teaching tool, given the current sim. The darkness and weather are fine, since that should be the challenge. However, you now have to call inbound for the runway lights to be turned on—this wasn’t the case when this was made and, so, isn’t mentioned—and you are being asked to land an extremely overweight aircraft with a full fuel load. The starting altitude could be a bit less, too, given the distance to the IAF. This isn’t a problem if you know that you need to level out at about 1100 m AGL for the IAF but, if not, that initial dive can be a bit disconcerting.

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Your rate of descent should be 3-5 m/s. If you’re following the large and small circle HUD cues, you’ll be at roughly 5 m/s. You should be crossing the outer marker at 330-350 km/hr and the inner marker at 310-320. Be at 280-290 km/hr just before the threshold. Don’t remember at what point you spot the runway in that mission but, at 1 km out (crossing inner marker) you should be at about 80-100 (I think) m height above the ground.

 

 

This.

 

For some additional info, check this thread:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=190270&highlight=Landing

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This.

 

For some additional info, check this thread:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=190270&highlight=Landing

Yes, though the training mission has you with 100% fuel and at Beslan with no ILS. I just edited my last post to replace the video with a new one.

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Find a runway in DCS that has side markings. Many of the runways only have basic ones. It should help with your sight picture.

 

One of the most basic rules [without an ILS flight director] taught over the past almost 80 years is that [nose] pitch controls approach speed, and power settings control your altitude [glide path]. Although, you will use a combo of both.

 

I just got the F5 in this current sale and loved shooting approaching with it. Hit my first one. While I 95% fly helicopters, the F5 is going to be my goto fixed wing when I just want to fly. There is a reason NASA uses the T-38:

""Astronauts, who are pilots maintain flying proficiency by flying 15

hours per month in NASA’s fleet of two-seat T38 jets. Non-pilot

astronauts fly a minimum of 4 hours per month. The T38 is used for

flight readiness training to help the astronauts become adjusted to

the flight environment, including the g-forces experienced on launch.""

 

 

That said, I did a quick search. You might find this helpful: http://code7700.com/aim_point_vs_touchdown_point.htm

 

[EDIT] My point being is once you see what normal approaches look like, over and over, running one in IMC is not as hard. Just don't try it IRL. :)


Edited by luckygecko
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Yes, though the training mission has you with 100% fuel and at Beslan with no ILS. I just edited my last post to replace the video with a new one.

 

It's a shame the training mission has you at 100% fuel. Having to land fast due to weight really won't be helpful for newcomers to the Su-27. I guess it was programmed that way to give the player plenty of chances to go around.

 

It'd almost be worth flying lazy orbits whilst dumping fuel for 7-8 minutes to get down to a realistic landing weight.

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It's a shame the training mission has you at 100% fuel. Having to land fast due to weight really won't be helpful for newcomers to the Su-27. I guess it was programmed that way to give the player plenty of chances to go around...

 

...for hours and hours with that fuel load. It took me by surprise. I was expecting 30-40% which would have been plenty. I looked down and thought: this should be interesting.

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It's a shame the training mission has you at 100% fuel. Having to land fast due to weight really won't be helpful for newcomers to the Su-27. I guess it was programmed that way to give the player plenty of chances to go around.

It's supposed to be of hard difficulty - not at all catered for newcomers. Otoh it's a training mission - I'm confused :)

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It's supposed to be of hard difficulty - not at all catered for newcomers. Otoh it's a training mission - I'm confused :)

 

Yeah, I can understand why they did it, but it makes little sense: having that much fuel puts the Su-27 WAY above the actual maximum permitted landing weight which makes for an unrealistic training mission. Outside of a mission aborted straight after takeoff I can't really think of a sim scenario which would mandate landing at such a heavy weight.

 

The difficulty in this mission should come from essentially being forced to do an IFR landing rather than having unusual and unhelpful flight characteristics during the approach and touchdown. Heavy landings could have much more effectively been taught during a separate "mission abort" training scenario.

 

30% fuel would have allowed for plenty of go-arounds while also providing much more realistic landing characteristics.

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Although not realistic to land with 100% fuel - being heavy is the last thing to worry in this mission. Crosswind messing with your lineup, keeping the glideslope and right thrust, constantly trimming, all with poor to none visibility makes it a lot harder than any heavy VFR landing.

 

 

 

I did it pretty well once although am not consistent at all after trying again multiple times later. Su is not my usual ride.

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Although not realistic to land with 100% fuel - being heavy is the last thing to worry in this mission. Crosswind messing with your lineup, keeping the glideslope and right thrust, constantly trimming, all with poor to none visibility makes it a lot harder than any heavy VFR landing.

 

I did it pretty well once although am not consistent at all after trying again multiple times later. Su is not my usual ride.

 

I agree, and I think this is what makes it a poor training mission. There should be a number of training missions:

 

1) Standard weight landing in perfect weather.

2) Heavy landing in perfect weather.

3) Low fuel "emergency" landing in perfect weather.

4) Standard landing in high wind.

5) Standard landing in poor visibility with low wind.

6) Standard landing in poor visibility with higher wind.

7) Standard landing in winter conditions / low runway surface grip.

 

Then repeat each scenario but this time at night.

 

Being thrown in to a "lol, sucks to be you" scenario simply isn't realistic. One final point: the range of a DCS Su-27 with no weapons and a full fuel load is well in excess of 2,000Km. Under the conditions in that training mission the only sensible approach would be to contact control and request a divert airfield, many of which could easily be reached.

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I agree, and I think this is what makes it a poor training mission. There should be a number of training missions

Yes, I agree. We can quickly make them in ME but the text and VOs should be amended accordingly. Otherwise there should be a warning - "Do not attempt unless you're higly trained IMC pilot! Any deviation from onspeed and glideslope on final shall be considered high risk and missed approach!"

 

Under the conditions in that training mission the only sensible approach would be to contact control and request a divert airfield, many of which could easily be reached.

That can only help with crosswind unless dynamic weather is set.

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Yes, I agree. We can quickly make them in ME but the text and VOs should be amended accordingly. Otherwise there should be a warning - "Do not attempt unless you're higly trained IMC pilot! Any deviation from onspeed and glideslope on final shall be considered high risk and missed approach!"

 

 

That can only help with crosswind unless dynamic weather is set.

Maybe this could be the final exam. I was playing around with Matt’s mission and decided to lower the ceiling as well as some other adjustments to make my palms sweat a bit. Though difficult, you break out of the clouds in time to make final adjustments. This might be worth a voiceover. Beslan at night, T-storm, ceiling 150 m AGL, 15 m/s crosswind (max allowable).

 

EDIT: In hindsight, I probably should have just uploaded the last 2.5 minutes or so. Until then, there’s not much to see. So just skip ahead.

 

 

Although the manual doesn’t mention it, the MiG-29 manual notes that the rollout is about 20% longer with a 15 m/s crosswind component. That seems to be roughly the case with our Su-27 as well.


Edited by Ironhand

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Maybe this could be the final exam. I was playing around with Matt’s mission and decided to lower the ceiling as well as some other adjustments to make my palms sweat a bit. Though difficult, you break out of the clouds in time to make final adjustments. This might be worth a voiceover. Beslan at night, T-storm, ceiling 150 m AGL, 15 m/s crosswind (max allowable).

 

EDIT: In hindsight, I probably should have just uploaded the last 2.5 minutes or so. Until then, there’s not much to see. So just skip ahead.

 

Although the manual doesn’t mention it, the MiG-29 manual notes that the rollout is about 20% longer with a 15 m/s crosswind component. That seems to be roughly the case with our Su-27 as well.

 

Beautiful landing given the bloody awful flying conditions. I've only bothered to do this training mission twice. I have a pathological dislike of crosswind landings. Probably comes from not having a set of rudder pedals.

 

I keep going back & forth on whether or not to use the chute for crosswind landings. Significantly reduces roll out distance but it can weathervane horribly. I don't think the DCS Su-27 flight manual mentions chute usage conditions unfortunately.

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Beautiful landing given the bloody awful flying conditions. I've only bothered to do this training mission twice. I have a pathological dislike of crosswind landings. Probably comes from not having a set of rudder pedals.

 

I keep going back & forth on whether or not to use the chute for crosswind landings. Significantly reduces roll out distance but it can weathervane horribly. I don't think the DCS Su-27 flight manual mentions chute usage conditions unfortunately.

 

Thanks. This is a bit different than the original. 25% fuel (IIRC) but low ceiling and roughly triple the crosswind component. According to the manual, 15 m/s is supposed to be the max. I was wondering what that looked like.

 

Also according to the manual, once the mains touch down, you smoothly rudder to align with the runway and shift the stick toward the wind to keep from veering. After that drop the nose wheel. I find that I have to stomp the rudder over rather than move it smoothly. Otherwise the airplane sort of “trips” over the downwind landing gear. So using the keyboard may not be all bad. :)

 

There’s nothing on the chute in a crosswind in the RW manual either other than to not use it until the nosewheel is down. I tend to not use it ever, anyway. I often forget I have one.

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Thanks. This is a bit different than the original. 25% fuel (IIRC) but low ceiling and roughly triple the crosswind component. According to the manual, 15 m/s is supposed to be the max. I was wondering what that looked like.

 

Also according to the manual, once the mains touch down, you smoothly rudder to align with the runway and shift the stick toward the wind to keep from veering. After that drop the nose wheel. I find that I have to stomp the rudder over rather than move it smoothly. Otherwise the airplane sort of “trips” over the downwind landing gear. So using the keyboard may not be all bad. :)

 

There’s nothing on the chute in a crosswind in the RW manual either other than to not use it until the nosewheel is down. I tend to not use it ever, anyway. I often forget I have one.

 

Interesting. I remember reading somewhere, unfortunately can't remember where now, that SOP is to only use the chute for short fields or under conditions of reduced surface grip. If it's not mentioned in the RW manual then I guess it comes down to pilot discretion.

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Also according to the manual, once the mains touch down, you smoothly rudder to align with the runway and shift the stick toward the wind to keep from veering. After that drop the nose wheel. I find that I have to stomp the rudder over rather than move it smoothly.

There’s nothing on the chute in a crosswind in the RW manual either.

Smoothly means that you shouldn't brainless kick the rudder to its stop, but to push the rudder in a controlled way to align the nose.

Nevertheless you have to be fairly quick...as you found out.

 

Furthermore pushing off the crab angle will increase lift on the accelerating, forward moving wing (especially on swept wing airplanes), which introduces an additional rolling moment.

It's not uncommon that you need full opposite aileron to keep the upwind wing from lifting.

 

Concerning the drag chute; It greatly increases the weathervaning effect and if used in a crosswind you have to jettison the chute at much higher speeds than usual, since the weathervaning effect increases with decreasing airspeed.


Edited by bbrz

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Smoothly means that you shouldn't brainless kick the rudder to its stop, but to push the rudder in a controlled way to align the nose.

Nevertheless you have to be fairly quick...as you found out.

 

Furthermore pushing off the crab angle will increase lift on the accelerating, forward moving wing (especially on swept wing airplanes), which introduces an additional rolling moment.

It's not uncommon that you need full opposite aileron to keep the upwind wing from lifting.

...

Ah, so the sim experience is fairly close. Thanks.

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