Push Time

So if you are told expected push time 44. time now 32, does that mean you can expect clearance to leave Marshall when it is 44 minuts past the hour and right now it is 32 minutes past the hour?

How does that go?

Thanks!

v6,

boNes

You gotta do the pilot "stuff" and make it happen on time.

It does, 44 means you need to be at the DME and altitude you are given at 44 minutes past the hour and pushing from the marshal towards the boat.

Great thanks! Isn,t it also that you should be timing it so that you’re on the inbound leg by the time they clear you in, so that you just go straight to the boat into the push from Marshal?

v6,

boNes

Indeed, you have to fly it so that you are on the inbound leg and you pass the marshal fix at the push time

I was at the Marshall hold and push time of 44 came, but I got no clearance call. Is this a bug, did I do something wrong, or is it assumed we just go ahead and push?

Anyone else get an actual clearance call?

v6,

boNes

boNes,

As I understand, your clearance was contained in the initial marshal instruction. At the assigned time (+/- 10 Sec) depart the marshal fix and commence the approach. As you pass the marshal fix on speed, on altitude, and at approach time, select the radio option COMMENCING.

I was at the Marshall hold and push time of 44 came, but I got no clearance call. Is this a bug, did I do something wrong, or is it assumed we just go ahead and push?

 

Anyone else get an actual clearance call?

 

boNes

Nobody receives clearence call, you are expected to be there and then as told. And if you could, you should say "Commencing" on the radio at the given push time, on your holding altitude, radial and DME, flying BRC heading (actually called Final Bearing in Case III), flying 250 and pushing your nose over to 4000 / min descend rate.

BTW, it is Page 55 of the Supercarrier manual. It is really worth reading. Maybe even the whole manual.

So this is a very interesting thread. I'm a certified IFR pilot IRL so I'm very familiar with instrument procedures. What we do not have in GA and CA is pushing times that are so restrictive and precise. In civil aviation we account for wind and stuff to have a proper holding pattern but all those techniques and mathematics are just approximations to a solution and very often won't make you have a perfect racetrack. Civil ATC will tell you each and every step you have to follow with times as well. They do not expect you to have a 10 second precision, not even close. So my question about this naval procedures, which I do not know, is how are you supposed to be on the fix at the push time after doing a holding pattern (1?) if they didn't tell you when you are supposed to begin that pattern? See what my doubt is? Like if I start the pattern at n time I will be at the fix at x time after doing 1 pattern, but if n changes so will x considering that the pattern is fixed. Thanks.

2nd post of this thread excerpts the RL manual, which gives a technique for adjusting timing in the hold.

Wags has a Case 3 tutorial video in which he demonstrates timing adjustments in the hold.

Nobody receives clearence call, you are expected to be there and then as told. And if you could, you should say "Commencing" on the radio at the given push time, on your holding altitude, radial and DME, flying BRC heading (actually called Final Bearing in Case III), flying 250 and pushing your nose over to 4000 / min descend rate.

 

BTW, it is Page 55 of the Supercarrier manual. It is really worth reading. Maybe even the whole manual.

I read the whole manual when the draft was released (except for the mission editor stuff).

Guess I didn’t recall it in the manual or I’m too used to civilian IFR holds. Although you push then anyway if say your radio is out.

v6,

boNes

The whole thing reminds me of the FAA's "Time Approaches from a Holding Fix." I've never seen or practiced this procedure, but look at the similarities with the USN's CASE 3 procedures. The USA FAA even provides identical guidance on timing the hold.:thumbup::thumbup:

1. Timed Approaches from a Holding Fix
   
   1. 
      
   2. TIMED APPROACHES may be conducted when the following conditions are met:
      
      1. A control tower is in operation at the airport where the approaches are conducted.
         
      2. Direct communications are maintained between the pilot and the center or approach controller until the pilot is instructed to contact the tower.
         
      3. If more than one missed approach procedure is available, none require a course reversal.
         
      4. If only one missed approach procedure is available, the following conditions are met:
         
         1. Course reversal is not required; and,
            
         2. Reported ceiling and visibility are equal to or greater than the highest prescribed circling minimums for the IAP.
            

          

         [*]When cleared for the approach, pilots must not execute a procedure turn. (14 CFR Section 91.175.)

          

         [*]Although the controller will not specifically state that “timed approaches are in use,” the assigning of a time to depart the final approach fix inbound (nonprecision approach) or the outer marker or fix used in lieu of the outer marker inbound (precision approach) is indicative that timed approach procedures are being utilized, or in lieu of holding, the controller may use radar vectors to the Final Approach Course to establish a mileage interval between aircraft that will ensure the appropriate time sequence between the final approach fix/outer marker or fix used in lieu of the outer marker and the airport.

         [*]Each pilot in an approach sequence will be given advance notice as to the time they should leave the holding point on approach to the airport. When a time to leave the holding point has been received, the pilot should adjust the flight path to leave the fix as closely as possible to the designated time. (See FIG 5-4-19.) FIG 5-4-19Timed Approaches from a Holding Fix

          

         EXAMPLE-

         At 12:03 local time, in the example shown, a pilot holding, receives instructions to leave the fix inbound at 12:07. These instructions are received just as the pilot has completed turn at the outbound end of the holding pattern and is proceeding inbound towards the fix. Arriving back over the fix, the pilot notes that the time is 12:04 and that there are 3 minutes to lose in order to leave the fix at the assigned time. Since the time remaining is more than two minutes, the pilot plans to fly a race track pattern rather than a 360 degree turn, which would use up 2 minutes. The turns at the ends of the race track pattern will consume approximately 2 minutes. Three minutes to go, minus 2 minutes required for the turns, leaves 1 minute for level flight. Since two portions of level flight will be required to get back to the fix inbound, the pilot halves the 1 minute remaining and plans to fly level for 30 seconds outbound before starting the turn back to the fix on final approach. If the winds were negligible at flight altitude, this procedure would bring the pilot inbound across the fix precisely at the specified time of 12:07. However, if expecting headwind on final approach, the pilot should shorten the 30 second outbound course somewhat, knowing that the wind will carry the aircraft away from the fix faster while outbound and decrease the ground speed while returning to the fix. On the other hand, compensating for a tailwind on final approach, the pilot should lengthen the calculated 30 second outbound heading somewhat, knowing that the wind would tend to hold the aircraft closer to the fix while outbound and increase the ground speed while returning to the fix.

          

      
      
   
   

So I watched wags "tutorial", and he talks about 10 mile racetrack... Where does that even come from? Are navy racetracks lenght defined by time like in civil aviation or by distance? I don't even know what each bank angle corresponds to which rate of turn. Manual doesn't say anything. Wags says that 300 gsd at 30° bank angle (I think) is a 1.5 minute turn, but that's all I got.

Also, what are the speed limits of navy patterns? I feel like I have very little information to simulate correctly these procedures.

Speed in the stack will be max conserve so about 250kias. And it doesn't have to be a perfect race track, as long as you stick to your altitude you can do anything required to put yourself in the right position at the right time.

Speed in the stack will be max conserve so about 250kias. And it doesn't have to be a perfect race track, as long as you stick to your altitude you can do anything required to put yourself in the right position at the right time.

In perfect Navy fashion you may even draw a d*ck in the sky

Navy ops are WAY more fluid than civil ops. Forget about sector entries, standard rate turns and such. Just "do some of that pilot shit!". Literally, no one cares if you do a perfect sector entry or draw a dick in the sky, just be ready on time and go from there.

So this is a very interesting thread. I'm a certified IFR pilot IRL so I'm very familiar with instrument procedures. What we do not have in GA and CA is pushing times that are so restrictive and precise. In civil aviation we account for wind and stuff to have a proper holding pattern but all those techniques and mathematics are just approximations to a solution and very often won't make you have a perfect racetrack. Civil ATC will tell you each and every step you have to follow with times as well. They do not expect you to have a 10 second precision, not even close. So my question about this naval procedures, which I do not know, is how are you supposed to be on the fix at the push time after doing a holding pattern (1?) if they didn't tell you when you are supposed to begin that pattern? See what my doubt is? Like if I start the pattern at n time I will be at the fix at x time after doing 1 pattern, but if n changes so will x considering that the pattern is fixed. Thanks.

If civil ATC assign you time to exit holding, they expect you to be precise. It's just lazy ass pilots do not care.

Like if I start the pattern at n time I will be at the fix at x time after doing 1 pattern, but if n changes so will x considering that the pattern is fixed. Thanks.

The best way to hopefully explain it is that the holding pattern in the Case 2/3 marshal stack isn’t “fixed” to the degree that a published civilian pattern is (ie specified x minute or x mile legs). Only requirement is that you stay on the protected side of the pattern (left) and hit your push point on speed within +/-10 seconds of your EAT (EFC equivalent on the civilian side). Other than that, you are free to do what you need to do in order to hit your point and time.

Assuming a standard rate turn on each end (1 minute each) or half standard (2 minutes) you then play with your leg length timing to adjust your pattern as needed.

It is very rare to not have more than one turn in holding - one generally plans to arrive in plenty of time to make their overhead/recovery time (being late is no bueno). This also gives you time to tweak your pattern as needed if your first pattern’s timing didn’t work out quite as expected.

Worst case, if you are on your last inbound leg and you realize you are going to be early you have some options: slow down for a bit (as long as you accelerate back to 250 by the time you commence), small S-turns towards the protected side, etc. If you realize you are a bit late, then can accelerate on the inbound leg (again, slowing back to 250 as you push). Again, the actual holding pattern itself is not fixed other than the direction of turns.

Should Marshall need to adjust your push time, they can do so by making a “99-Delta x” call, where X is the number of minutes you should add to your previously assigned approach time. Or, more commonly, they will just announce “99- standby new approach times”, and then will individually assign a new approach time to each aircraft in the stack as time/comms permit.

At that point you start the process all over again of determining how many and how long of a holding pattern(s) you are going to fly to meet your new push time.

Happens quite frequently, especially on crappy days/nights as aircraft bolter and the bolter/waveoff pattern gets crowded. They obviously don't want more guys commencing their approach (and burning more gas down low) until the pattern clears out a bit.

As already stated, there is no further clearance like there is on the civilian side. You commence at your assigned approach time unless told otherwise. It is possible that they take you early (Ie. low state, aircraft issue) in which case they may clear you to turn inbound immediately or even give you a vector outside of the stack so that they can descend you more quickly - same as I’m sure you’ve experienced on the civilian side.

The best way to hopefully explain it is that the holding pattern in the Case 2/3 marshal stack isn’t “fixed” to the degree that a published civilian pattern is (ie specified x minute or x mile legs). Only requirement is that you stay on the protected side of the pattern (left) and hit your push point on speed within +/-10 seconds of your EAT (EFC equivalent on the civilian side). Other than that, you are free to do what you need to do in order to hit your point and time.

 

Assuming a standard rate turn on each end (1 minute each) or half standard (2 minutes) you then play with your leg length timing to adjust your pattern as needed.

 

It is very rare to not have more than one turn in holding - one generally plans to arrive in plenty of time to make their overhead/recovery time (being late is no bueno). This also gives you time to tweak your pattern as needed if your first pattern’s timing didn’t work out quite as expected.

 

Worst case, if you are on your last inbound leg and you realize you are going to be early you have some options: slow down for a bit (as long as you accelerate back to 250 by the time you commence), small S-turns towards the protected side, etc. If you realize you are a bit late, then can accelerate on the inbound leg (again, slowing back to 250 as you push). Again, the actual holding pattern itself is not fixed other than the direction of turns.

 

Should Marshall need to adjust your push time, they can do so by making a “99-Delta x” call, where X is the number of minutes you should add to your previously assigned approach time. Or, more commonly, they will just announce “99- standby new approach times”, and then will individually assign a new approach time to each aircraft in the stack as time/comms permit.

 

At that point you start the process all over again of determining how many and how long of a holding pattern(s) you are going to fly to meet your new push time.

 

Happens quite frequently, especially on crappy days/nights as aircraft bolter and the bolter/waveoff pattern gets crowded. They obviously don't want more guys commencing their approach (and burning more gas down low) until the pattern clears out a bit.

 

As already stated, there is no further clearance like there is on the civilian side. You commence at your assigned approach time unless told otherwise. It is possible that they take you early (Ie. low state, aircraft issue) in which case they may clear you to turn inbound immediately or even give you a vector outside of the stack so that they can descend you more quickly - same as I’m sure you’ve experienced on the civilian side.

Very great and informative first post! What's your experience with this, how did you know?

v6,

boNes

For anyone that hasn't, check out the fighter pilots podcast and the night carrier ops episode. Jello (our new LSO!) talks about case 3s and it sounds fairly fluid as long as you are at your altitude and you are right place and time for push. He jokes about all pilots listening out for everyone saying commencing at their correct time even if they weren't exactly where they were supposed to be, otherwise they got slammed in the ready room etc. Doesn't sound like an easy thing to do, takes practice, planning and skill!

If civil ATC assign you time to exit holding, they expect you to be precise. It's just lazy ass pilots do not care.

It is very uncommon for a civilian atc to ask for a holding exit time. Even more uncommon is to request that in advance. If they do they will do it while you are holding and according to your timings in a certain level. I'm not an airline pilot though so I can be mistaken but I do have a couple thousand hours in taxi industry.

For anyone that hasn't, check out the fighter pilots podcast and the night carrier ops episode. Jello (our new LSO!) talks about case 3s and it sounds fairly fluid as long as you are at your altitude and you are right place and time for push. He jokes about all pilots listening out for everyone saying commencing at their correct time even if they weren't exactly where they were supposed to be, otherwise they got slammed in the ready room etc. Doesn't sound like an easy thing to do, takes practice, planning and skill!

Thanks for the info.

The best way to hopefully explain it is that the holding pattern in the Case 2/3 marshal stack isn’t “fixed” to the degree that a published civilian pattern is (ie specified x minute or x mile legs). Only requirement is that you stay on the protected side of the pattern (left) and hit your push point on speed within +/-10 seconds of your EAT (EFC equivalent on the civilian side). Other than that, you are free to do what you need to do in order to hit your point and time.

 

Assuming a standard rate turn on each end (1 minute each) or half standard (2 minutes) you then play with your leg length timing to adjust your pattern as needed.

 

It is very rare to not have more than one turn in holding - one generally plans to arrive in plenty of time to make their overhead/recovery time (being late is no bueno). This also gives you time to tweak your pattern as needed if your first pattern’s timing didn’t work out quite as expected.

 

Worst case, if you are on your last inbound leg and you realize you are going to be early you have some options: slow down for a bit (as long as you accelerate back to 250 by the time you commence), small S-turns towards the protected side, etc. If you realize you are a bit late, then can accelerate on the inbound leg (again, slowing back to 250 as you push). Again, the actual holding pattern itself is not fixed other than the direction of turns.

 

Should Marshall need to adjust your push time, they can do so by making a “99-Delta x” call, where X is the number of minutes you should add to your previously assigned approach time. Or, more commonly, they will just announce “99- standby new approach times”, and then will individually assign a new approach time to each aircraft in the stack as time/comms permit.

 

At that point you start the process all over again of determining how many and how long of a holding pattern(s) you are going to fly to meet your new push time.

 

Happens quite frequently, especially on crappy days/nights as aircraft bolter and the bolter/waveoff pattern gets crowded. They obviously don't want more guys commencing their approach (and burning more gas down low) until the pattern clears out a bit.

 

As already stated, there is no further clearance like there is on the civilian side. You commence at your assigned approach time unless told otherwise. It is possible that they take you early (Ie. low state, aircraft issue) in which case they may clear you to turn inbound immediately or even give you a vector outside of the stack so that they can descend you more quickly - same as I’m sure you’ve experienced on the civilian side.

Jesus! What a way to start your forum career! Welcome and thank you very much for all the details.