Jump to content

G-limiter override characteristics


Hummingbird

Recommended Posts

Pulling the paddle switch will make a sudden jump in G if you are already pulling back hard on the stick.

 

Correct, but that is only logical and not the issue.

 

The issue is that there is a sudden jump in G's even if you've been holding down the paddle since before you ever pulled back on the stick (or atleast before you've pulled back far enough to even reach the normal limit), an issue that isn't present in real life where if you've depressed the paddle before reaching the normal limit, then crossing said limit would be as smooth and gradual as your stick inputs command.

 

As for the rest of your post, I agree, as long as I know the aircraft can take it without risking a crash, then I will make use of such systems as well should I find myself in a do or die situation - such as a guns only fight vs another 4th gen fighter where every last bit of performance is required.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 125
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

If aircraft are over G-ed, they should incure damaged. Pretty simple.

 

Everything else is theory crafting.

 

Using the paddle switch and over G-ing the hornet in the game however, should be no issue because the game allows it with near impunity. It's a game, why not ?

 

The irony is the incredible adherence for realism in one aspect and not others. Some may view this as hypocritical, or cherry picking what to demand from the programmers based on a personal agenda masquerading as championing "realism ".


Edited by Lex Talionis

Find us on Discord. https://discord.gg/td9qeqg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If aircraft are over G-ed, they should incure damaged. Pretty simple.

 

Everything else is theory crafting.

 

Not sure how to interpret this, esp. having myself had, as well as watched others', lengthy talks with pilots expressing no concern with crossing the peace time G limits of their aircraft when needed - several F-14 pilots even admit to having frequently crossed the peacetime 6.5 G limit of their aircraft on purpose during mock fights without the slighest damage or fear there'of (Okie's interview on Air Crew Interview for example). The impression you are left with is always that the aircraft can take a whole lot more than the pilot.

 

But ofcourse, as I've always said, if there is quantifiable data that the aircraft WILL incur a certain type of damage by crossing a certain G load at a certain weight, then as always that ofcourse needs to be modelled (and I believe it already is on many modules). HB did a great job of making sure of this in the F14 module, where certain electronics etc will fail at a documented G for example - but it's way up there, once again demonstrating how tough the aircraft really was/is. Infact the F14's airframe was tested to 13 G without any deformation, the elastic limit of the wings & wingbox determined as being around 13.3 G's IIRC, with the collapsing point being shortly thereafter. (Which also explains how several cats went north of 10 G's without any damage to the airframe)

 

Using the paddle switch and over G-ing the hornet in the game however, should be no issue because the game allows it with near impunity. It's a game, why not ?

 

The irony is the incredible adherence for realism in one aspect and not others. Some may view this as hypocritical, or cherry picking what to demand from the programmers based on a personal agenda masquerading as championing "realism ".

 

But no'one ever said they wanted over G'ing with impunity? Again if there is a limit which is documented to cause any form of immediate damage then it ofc needs to be modelled, and by immediate I also mean modelling the elastic limit and resulting derformations.

 

I'm kinda sad that one cannot ask for a certain system to function correctly without having to suffer accusations of not wanting realism, esp. when realism is the entire goal of the request.


Edited by Hummingbird
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If aircraft are over G-ed, they should incure damaged. Pretty simple.

 

Everything else is theory crafting.

 

Using the paddle switch and over G-ing the hornet in the game however, should be no issue because the game allows it with near impunity. It's a game, why not ?

 

The irony is the incredible adherence for realism in one aspect and not others. Some may view this as hypocritical, or cherry picking what to demand from the programmers based on a personal agenda masquerading as championing "realism ".

 

 

Absolutely Lex.. but again i'l try to clarify the point of Hummingbirds thread here, seems like most people are missing the point of his request in this thread. Allow me to ask you a question with your experience as a real hornet pilot (which i absolutely value and thank you for your contribution to these forums!)

 

 

 

I know this would not be done IRL but.. In your opinion, with your experience of the FCS, if you were to hold the override paddle while in 1G level flight, (with a fairly clean config so you have a 7.5G FCS limit) and you slowly pull till you get to the 7.5G limit, then slowly pull to exceed that limit, would the G increase be proportional to you stick pull? OR would when you exceed the 7.5G limit would the FCS suddenly jerk you to 8 or 8.5G ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm kinda sad that one cannot ask for a certain system to function correctly without having to incure accusations of not wanting realism, esp. when realism is the entire goal of the request.

 

 

I feel for you.. its quite a simple question. :huh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure how to interpret this, esp. having myself had, as well as watched others', lengthy talks with pilots expressing no concern with crossing the peace time G limits of their aircraft when needed - several F-14 pilots even admit to having frequently crossed the peacetime 6.5 G limit of their aircraft on purpose during mock fights without the slighest damage or fear there'of (Okie's interview on Air Crew Interview for example). The impression you are left with is always that the aircraft can take a whole lot more than the pilot.

 

But ofcourse, as I've always said, if there is quantifiable data that the aircraft WILL incur a certain type of damage by crossing a certain G load at a certain weight, then as always that ofcourse needs to be modelled (and I believe it already is on many modules). HB did a great job of making sure of this in the F14 module, where certain electronics etc will fail at a documented G for example - but it's way up there, once again demonstrating how tough the aircraft really was/is. Infact the F14's airframe was tested to 13 G without any deformation, the elastic limit of the wings & wingbox determined as being around 13.3 G's IIRC, with the collapsing point being shortly thereafter. (Which also explains how several cats went north of 10 G's without any damage to the airframe)

 

 

 

But no'one ever said they wanted over G'ing with impunity? Again if there is a limit which is documented to cause any form of immediate damage then it ofc needs to be modelled, and by immediate I also mean modelling the elastic limit and resulting derformations.

 

I'm kinda sad that one cannot ask for a certain system to function correctly without having to suffer accusations of not wanting realism, esp. when realism is the entire goal of the request.

 

I don’t care what the Tomcat guys said. The Hornet community does not align with the views you say they expressed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely Lex.. but again i'l try to clarify the point of Hummingbirds thread here, seems like most people are missing the point of his request in this thread. Allow me to ask you a question with your experience as a real hornet pilot (which i absolutely value and thank you for your contribution to these forums!)

 

 

 

I know this would not be done IRL but.. In your opinion, with your experience of the FCS, if you were to hold the override paddle while in 1G level flight, (with a fairly clean config so you have a 7.5G FCS limit) and you slowly pull till you get to the 7.5G limit, then slowly pull to exceed that limit, would the G increase be proportional to you stick pull? OR would when you exceed the 7.5G limit would the FCS suddenly jerk you to 8 or 8.5G ?

 

I can’t speak for Lex, but I have no idea how it would work, because I don’t know anybody who has used it. I don’t have academic training on its smoothness or roughness, because the extent of the training on it is: “you get 33% more G, don’t use it unless you’re about to become one with something else and have no other choice to avoid that outcome.” The academic instructors aren’t going to go into detail on its smoothness or roughness, if they even know the answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

..... the irony is, people are dead set on the system working "correctly ", without the correct consequence for using said "correct" system.

 

If only life worked like this. Something about "cake" and "eating it too". I think wikipedia is gaining the upper hand on reality.

 

 

The thread has taken an interesting philosophical turn trying to rationalize this. Good luck all.

 

(Non directed satire, no one get offended please )

 

picture.php?albumid=1621&pictureid=10841


Edited by Lex Talionis

Find us on Discord. https://discord.gg/td9qeqg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a question that nobody can answer. Even from the real pilots. The way it works in DCS could be spot on for all we know.

 

If it should only be used to save your ass. Who cares if it jerks as long as you're saved?

Buzz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*sigh* if nobody wants to read what is being written then why even bother...

 

Maybe real pilots don't use it because they don't put themselves in a position to need it. Maybe you should work on that if you want realistic.

Buzz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"..... the irony is, people are dead set on the system working "correctly ", without the correct consequence for using said "correct" system. "

 

Seriously Lex? Where does that come from?

 

In how many places do people need to say that they want the switch behavior to be modeled correctly AND that they want the damage to be modeled correctly? I've even gone so far as to say that if I had to choose one or the other I'd take the damage modeling because the current way that the switch operates is a minor annoyance at most.

 

I've said it multiple times. So has HB.

 

I also asked a while ago where the sentiment that this is a one or the other issue is coming from... Please stop beating that horse sir :). That's not what we want :)

 

 

Not offended by the way :).. Even thought Buzz is trying real hard from the top of that really high horse he feels like he's on...


Edited by M1Combat

Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x

Asus Prime X570P, 64GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"the extent of the training on it is: “you get 33% more G, don’t use it unless you’re about to become one with something else and have no other choice to avoid that outcome.”"

 

Would that include missiles and/or bullets should they actually be fired at you? Accepting that you have no other choice to avoid the outcome? Asking for a friend :).

Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x

Asus Prime X570P, 64GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"..... the irony is, people are dead set on the system working "correctly ", without the correct consequence for using said "correct" system. "

 

Seriously Lex? Where does that come from?

 

In how many places do people need to say that they want the switch behavior to be modeled correctly AND that they want the damage to be modeled correctly? I've even gone so far as to say that if I had to choose one or the other I'd take the damage modeling because the current way that the switch operates is a minor annoyance at most.

 

I've said it multiple times. So has HB.

 

I also asked a while ago where the sentiment that this is a one or the other issue is coming from... Please stop beating that horse sir :). That's not what we want :)

 

 

Not offended by the way :).. Even thought Buzz is trying real hard from the top of that really high horse he feels like he's on...

 

No high horse in my personality. You misunderstood my intention.

 

I just think it's a waste of time to keep beating on a question that can't be answered

Buzz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"the extent of the training on it is: “you get 33% more G, don’t use it unless you’re about to become one with something else and have no other choice to avoid that outcome.”"

 

Would that include missiles and/or bullets should they actually be fired at you? Accepting that you have no other choice to avoid the outcome? Asking for a friend :).

 

This has been answered several times. I won’t address It again. I think the problem is that your friend finds the answer illogical, or doesn’t want to accept it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why can't it be answered? Maybe it's answered the best that it can be by GB when he says they're trained with “you get 33% more G, don’t use it unless you’re about to become one with something else and have no other choice to avoid that outcome.”?

 

As far as the switch behavior... Lex answered that already. He says it should just pile on G in a linear fashion, which is NOT how it behaves right now.

 

Anyway... I'm resigned to not having an answer to the "likelihood of pilot use" question. That's fine. We're talking about the USGOV here :)… maybe there are issues surrounding the question that we don't see. That's cool :). Maybe there aren't. That's cool too :). I've tried to make the question as specific as I can. I'm not talking about training. I'm talking about real combat and a real likelihood that a super-good pilot will die if they don't pull it. It's a simple question but I realize the answer may not be simple. That's cool :). I'll keep using it and I'll keep hoping that the damage modeling will get better so I'll suffer some consequences sometimes. I've used the one in the 27 and died because of it... I mostly stopped using it after that :).

Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x

Asus Prime X570P, 64GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's all good GB :). It hasn't been answered. It's been addressed for sure and Thank you for addressing it in the way that you did. I really am not trying to be obtuse or troublesome and I'm CERTAINLY not trying to drive anyone away from any forums so please don't take that track at all :).

 

I'm just trying to pose a hypothetical situation and get the answer from real pilots about it. The best I've heard is indeed from you where you say you wouldn't ever use it unless you were going to become one with something else. In my mind that includes weapons. I still don't know if that includes weapons in your mind and I'm ok with that man :)… I am. Mostly because the answer is vehemently avoided so I'll stop asking :). Not because it has been answered :). But it's cool :).

Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x

Asus Prime X570P, 64GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals (Using VJoy and Gremlin to remap Throttle and Clutch into a Rudder axis)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been answered several times. I won’t address It again.

 

My question has indeed been answered, very early on in this very thread infact, and the answer is that it's not working as it should: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3909323&postcount=30

 

How this almost immediately got warped into me 1) not wanting a realistic damage model 2) asking for an unrealistic feature to aid me in "airquaking" & 3) me trying to imply anything about the real life protocol for its use, three things I made abundantly clear several times that the thread wasn't about at all), that I shall never understand...

 

I think the problem is that your friend finds the answer illogical, or doesn’t want to accept it.

 

No, my problem is people just skimming through posts without actually reading the contents and then proceeding to accuse me of not wanting realism. I find it extremely puzzling infact.


Edited by Hummingbird
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Naval and Marine Aviator's training doctrine does not include activating the G-limiter Paddle.

 

 

Within the Naval and Marine Aviator community, there are no known stories of the G-Limiter Paddle being activated.

 

 

This is uncharted waters for Naval and Marine Aviators about how the G's will transition during activation of the G-Limiter Paddle.

 

 

I would suggest you contact McDonnell Douglas /Boeing / Northrop Grumman for FCS Flight Test Data about the effects of activating the G-Limiter Paddle because the Test Pilots were most likely the only personnel to have activated the G-Limiter Paddle.

 

 

If you obtain the data, please update us.

 

 

Happy Simming,

Monnie


Edited by MonnieRock

Rack Rig: Rosewill RSV-L4000 | Koolance ERM-3K3UC | Xeon E5-1680 v2 @ 4.9ghz w/EK Monoblock | Asus Rampage IV Black Edition | 64GB 2133mhz | SLI TitanXP w/ EK Waterblocks | 2x Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB | Seasonic 1000w Titanium | Windows 10 Pro 64bit | TM Warthog HOTAS w/40cm Extension | MFG Crosswind Rudders | Obutto R3volution | HP Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Naval and Marine Aviator's training doctrine does not include activating the G-limiter Paddle.

 

 

Within the Naval and Marine Aviator community, there are no known stories of the G-Limiter Paddle being activated.

 

 

This is uncharted waters for Naval and Marine Aviators about how the G's will transition during activation of the G-Limiter Paddle.

 

 

I would suggest you contact Boeing for FCS Flight Test Data about the effects of activating the G-Limiter Paddle because the Test Pilots were most likely the only personnel to have activated the G-Limiter Paddle.

 

 

If you obtain the data, please update us.

 

 

Happy Simming,

Monnie

 

+1

 

The point I was trying to make.

Buzz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My question has indeed been answered, very early on in this very thread infact, and the answer is that it's not working as it should: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3909323&postcount=30

 

How this almost immediately got warped into me 1) not wanting a realistic damage model 2) asking for an unrealistic feature to aid me in "airquaking" & 3) me trying to imply anything about the real life protocol for its use, three things I made abundantly clear several times that the thread wasn't about at all), that I shall never understand...

 

 

 

No, my problem is people just skimming through posts without actually reading the contents and then proceeding to accuse me of not wanting realism. I find it extremely puzzling infact.

 

You understand when you posted my quote about the answer being illogical, I wasn’t talking to you right? When I said “friend” it was in reference to M1 saying “asking for a friend.”

 

Also, you keep saying that you don’t care about protocol and how it’s used, and that you only care that it’s mechanics are true to life. The reason that I previously gave you a discussion on its protocol and practical uses is because you invited it. Specifically in posts 62, 95, 97, 104 of this thread, you had made assertions directly related to its practical uses, despite the insistence you don’t care about its practical uses.


Edited by G B
Fix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, you keep saying that you don’t care about protocol and how it’s used, and that you only care that it’s mechanics are true to life. The reason that I previously gave you a discussion on its protocol and practical uses is because you invited it. Specifically in posts 62, 95, 97, 104 of this thread, you had made assertions directly related to its practical uses, despite the insistence you don’t care about its practical uses.

 

I didn't make any assertions what so ever, I infact clearly stated that this wasn't what concerned me, but that in the situation it is used then it's pretty important that it doesn't just instantly throw 2-3 G's at you. This whole thread is about how the system should function, not about the standard procedure of its use, an area where I can only ask questions ala what M1 did and apparently not really get a 100% answer to them due to most pilots probably never having found themselves in a real life do or die dogfight vs a 4th gen enemy fighter. That the paddle is pretty much NEVER used otherwise I got the first time.


Edited by Hummingbird
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...