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Farlander

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I totally agree with you. The Tornado and the Viggen are indeed based on the same concept.

 

I'm very interested in the differences between the british and the german Tornados, especially in the very first Tornado (GR.1/IDS). I did not know about the additional fuel tanks in the fins of the british GR.1, so that's something new for me, thanks! I've also heard that it was not possible in the british GR.1. to project the radar picture onto the map display, like it was possible on the german IDS. Do you know anything about that or any other differences between the two?

 

 

Here's something I've also wondered about: Is the RECCE actually a modified Tornado variant or is it just the standard IDS Tornado with a RECCE pod attached?

 

 

I'm pretty sure the italian ECRs don't carry guns too, as the space is needed for the emitter location system.

 

The RECCE had an additional control panel for the RECCE pods, and the center line pylon had additional wiring. So kind of in between a separate variant and standard IDS.

But for a potential Tornado IDS Module, it would be easier to make an IDS and the RECCE an option, than to make a GR.1 and a GR.1A an option.

It is like having one additional "weapon" (the two different RECCE pods) and a control panel. Otherwise it is an IDS.

 

The Germany Navy IDS had an additional control panel for the Kormoran. So technically they are no standard IDS's as well.

 

With the new ASSTA 3.0/3.1 and upwards standards, they will get rid of the differences, mostly.

Apart from the ECR having no guns and having an ELS, they all get FLIR, same software, data-link, and can all deploy all weapons.

They won't all deploy everything though, because every squadron is specialized on different tasks.

 

I red that the Sea Eagle didn't need a control panel, but I'm not sure.

I'll try and find out more about the radar views on British jets, but I have the same information as you do.

 

I'm not sure about the Italian IDS and ECR. Some were retrofitted from IDS to ECR. But they shouldn't have guns.

The ELS (Emitter Locater System) sensors are mounted inside the wing root, where the big black area is. The IDS has smaller black "fields/patches" on the wing root front

The ELSs' "black-boxes" behind the scenes and the ODIN (a kind of data-link between ECR Tornados) took the space of both guns.

 

The Tornado was designed with the newest space saving design inside the fuselage in mind.

All tanks were out of self sealing rubber bags rather than just sealed metal compartments.

I had a look at it last week and they used unbelievably small spaces for fuel, even below and in between the engines. Some as big as small handbags, it feels like.

I guess they have about 26 bags or so just inside the fuselage. So I guess the Italians had to use the same space.

 

A bit of info is also available on the official website and this other one:

 

http://www.tornadosig.com

https://www.panavia.de/

 

The next days I will order this book: Tornado Gr1: An Operational History by Michael John W. Napier

 

I hope to find things that I don't know about the brit Tornado


Edited by Bananabrai

Alias in Discord: Mailman

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I'm not sure about the Italian IDS and ECR. Some were retrofitted from IDS to ECR. But they shouldn't have guns.

The ELS (Emitter Locater System) sensors are mounted inside the wing root, where the big black area is. The IDS has smaller black "fields/patches" on the wing root front

The ELSs' "black-boxes" behind the scenes and the ODIN (a kind of data-link between ECR Tornados) took the space of both guns.

 

 

http://www.tornadosig.com

https://www.panavia.de/

 

The next days I will order this book: Tornado Gr1: An Operational History by Michael John W. Napier

 

I hope to find things that I don't know about the brit Tornado

 

I am pretty sure that the ETS in the ECR Tornados is under the front belly behind the front wheel.

 

Italian ECRs are modifed IDSs, whereas german ones are new built. It is obvious when you look at the engines, the IDS and italian ECR have RB199-34R Mk.103 but the german ECRs have RB199-34R Mk.105 and the ADV/F3 have the Mk.104 version.

All IDSs have two 27mm guns, all F3/ADVs have one 27mm and the ECRs don't have any guns.

175919.thumb.jpg.22aa736e342b1f6c9c34ff5f64766ebf.jpg

3-a-luftwaffe-tornado-ids-over-northern-gert-kromhout.jpg.11604c708b971a76907065899f7f9e26.jpg


Edited by schroedi
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The RECCE had an additional control panel for the RECCE pods, and the center line pylon had additional wiring. So kind of in between a separate variant and standard IDS.

But for a potential Tornado IDS Module, it would be easier to make an IDS and the RECCE an option, than to make a GR.1 and a GR.1A an option.

It is like having one additional "weapon" (the two different RECCE pods) and a control panel. Otherwise it is an IDS.

 

The Germany Navy IDS had an additional control panel for the Kormoran. So technically they are no standard IDS's as well.

 

With the new ASSTA 3.0/3.1 and upwards standards, they will get rid of the differences, mostly.

Apart from the ECR having no guns and having an ELS, they all get FLIR, same software, data-link, and can all deploy all weapons.

They won't all deploy everything though, because every squadron is specialized on different tasks.

 

I red that the Sea Eagle didn't need a control panel, but I'm not sure.

I'll try and find out more about the radar views on British jets, but I have the same information as you do.

 

I'm not sure about the Italian IDS and ECR. Some were retrofitted from IDS to ECR. But they shouldn't have guns.

The ELS (Emitter Locater System) sensors are mounted inside the wing root, where the big black area is. The IDS has smaller black "fields/patches" on the wing root front

The ELSs' "black-boxes" behind the scenes and the ODIN (a kind of data-link between ECR Tornados) took the space of both guns.

 

The Tornado was designed with the newest space saving design inside the fuselage in mind.

All tanks were out of self sealing rubber bags rather than just sealed metal compartments.

I had a look at it last week and they used unbelievably small spaces for fuel, even below and in between the engines. Some as big as small handbags, it feels like.

I guess they have about 26 bags or so just inside the fuselage. So I guess the Italians had to use the same space.

 

A bit of info is also available on the official website and this other one:

 

http://www.tornadosig.com

https://www.panavia.de/

 

The next days I will order this book: Tornado Gr1: An Operational History by Michael John W. Napier

 

I hope to find things that I don't know about the brit Tornado

Great post, thanks mate! :thumbup:

 

And Napier is a great chap. I've read his book "Tornado over the Tigris" and enjoyed it a lot.

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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With this module, a dream would come true for me. All other modules would be meaningless to me.

 

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Panavia-Tornado-in-formation.thumb.jpg.41be15f564362ab88cbe2dd5287ae55d.jpg

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DCS World needs the Panavia Tornado! Really!

**************************************

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The J35F or J35J would be really sweet! I guess it's not a far fetch as they already announced it as a high fidelity AI.

 

Btw, the J35 Draken didn't have any official attack capability (although you could put some rockets on it) hence no "A" in front of the numbers. And while I'm at it, no dash either. The official designations are without dashes in the Swedish Air Force - J35, AJS37, JA37, JAS39 etc... ;)

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  • 2 months later...
I am pretty sure that the ETS in the ECR Tornados is under the front belly behind the front wheel.

 

Italian ECRs are modifed IDSs, whereas german ones are new built. It is obvious when you look at the engines, the IDS and italian ECR have RB199-34R Mk.103 but the german ECRs have RB199-34R Mk.105 and the ADV/F3 have the Mk.104 version.

All IDSs have two 27mm guns, all F3/ADVs have one 27mm and the ECRs don't have any guns.

 

I talked about the ELS, not ETS. We're talking about something different here.

 

German and Itilian ECR's were not the same of the very reason your saying, thanks.

 

I am wondering how you see the difference between the engines by watching it from the exterior.

The Mk104 is more different in size, but the Mk103 and Mk105 are close by in size.

Alias in Discord: Mailman

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Maybe Heatblur would make an A6 intruder next. I know Razbam had expressed interest to do that module , but HEATBLUR are already developed and will be releasing an A6E AI for DCS. IF ED would only grant them a License, its probably the aircraft they want to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cobra after all had this statement:

 

"We're working on another complex jet which will make good use of our own technologies. We're also looking at expanding the F-14 product, but will look more closely at what exactly that means after release. That said, 2018 will be mostly the year of improvements to both the F-14 and Viggen.

 

We don't want to be stuck in the eternal Beta rut."

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3244974&postcount=2

 

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I for one would like to see the EE Lighting or Mig 25 however seeing as Heatblur has developed jester ai it would make more sense to have them roll out another two seater such as the A6, or the tornado in some form, either that or they team up with ED and make an F18D.

 

I definitely think they should expand upon naval aircraft though weather that be in the form of something such as the A-7 Corsair II or the A3D Skywarrior as it has a 3 man crew, is a bomber and is also carrier cabale.

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I for one would like to see the EE Lighting or Mig 25 however seeing as Heatblur has developed jester ai it would make more sense to have them roll out another two seater such as the A6, or the tornado in some form, either that or they team up with ED and make an F18D.

 

The Mig-31 is a two seater. Would be lovely to see either that or Mig-25 from Heatblur - would be a natural REDFOR platform to put toe to toe with the Tomcat. Can you say no to Mach 3.2?

SA-342 Ka-50 Mi-8 AJS-37 F-18 M2000C AV-8B-N/A Mig-15bis CA --- How to learn DCS

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The Mig-31 is a two seater. Would be lovely to see either that or Mig-25 from Heatblur - would be a natural REDFOR platform to put toe to toe with the Tomcat. Can you say no to Mach 3.2?

No, sadly it wouldn't.

The Mig-25 and Mig-31 are great at being fast interceptors carrying big boomsticks...but the trade off was maneuverability.

The -25 for example has a maximum g-limit of around 4.5 only. It simply isn't and will not be any good in WVR fights.

 

BVR might be interesting, but I have no idea how good its long range missiles are at hitting small-ish targets.

 

 

Really, you're looking for a Mig-23 if you want a roughly comparable fighter, or the Mig-29.

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There isn't really a mirror analogue to F-14 in the "red" block.

 

MiG-25 would be hard pressed, and Iraqi MiG-25s did pretty poorly against Iranian F-14s (though I don't know if they were all recon versions or were interceptor versions involved as well).

 

MiG-31 can try hit and run possibly but R-33 being SARH and AIM-54 being ARH, even hit and run would be difficult, and hit and run is the only option MiG-31 has. Also supporting the R-33s against head Tomcats would probably put the MiG dangerously close to the Tomcats even if they don't use Phoenix. While the notion of Phoenix not being the best choice against maneuvering targets may (or may not) be true, even if that is the case a MiG-31 with 5G limit isn't quite agile. We know that Phoenix can deal with a Phantom doing a 6G turn from its tests.

 

MiG-23, even the MLD version, is pretty much outclassed in both BVR and WVR. However, if it can get to WVR, it may have some chance if flown by a (significantly) better pilot, or can somehow surprise the Tomcat.

 

Really if you want to red bird that can go against the Tomcat on an equal footing, you need to look at the Flanker family in my opinion.

 

MiG-25 and MiG-31 are very different from what most of us think of fighters. They really fit better into being called interceptors. An Iraqi MiG-25 did speed through a whole bunch of missiles and fired at an RF-111 but didn't hit it. Still forced it to abort and did its job. But as far as I know, none of the missiles were a Phoenix. A MiG-31 can perhaps do it a bit better with access to much better missiles but still they work mostly the same way: Go in hot, fire away, hope for the best for your missiles, and get the hell out of there as fast as you've come, and then hope for the worst for their missiles.

 

This too can be an interesting style of flight to explore in DCS, but against Tomcat I don't think they are great opponents at all.

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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With this module, a dream would come true for me. All other modules would be meaningless to me.

 

 

+100.

 

And even if already told this, I don't care.

The Tornados made by Heatblur would be a true dream, especially after the F-14 released after solving the two-seater cockpit 'issue' successfully solved.

With best regards,

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BTW, I think instead of going all "what's the next" before a module is even release like we always do, at this point it is a better idea to see it done as we have bazillions of modules don't reach completion even after years.

 

Still I will play though. Based on what seems likely that Heatbulr may do, and what I would like, I'd go like:

 

A-6E TRAM (or later): Insta-love.

Draken: Insta-love.

 

What they haven't shown any hints, but I would love anyway:

- Su-24 (preferably M2)

- F-111

- A-7E & A-7D

- Tornado

- A-4 (C,E,M preferably all the versions :P but for a single version I'd probably take M)

 

Although they haven't shown any interest in Centra European aircraft so far, I'd love seeing a Jaguar and/or SEM as well.

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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