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Subs Submerging


CallsignPunch

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Anyone notice Silver Dragons post in the unofficial roadmap about Subs being able to submerge? The post referenced a Russian post but I don’t speak Russian.

 

Anyone had a chance to play with subs going under yet?

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Cool thanks for the explanation....yeah figured it wouldn’t really have much functionality at this point but it’s good to hear progress toward sub warfare

i9-9900k, Asus ROG Strix Z390-3, 32GB DDR4-3000, MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti, 2TB Samsung 860 Evo SSD| Reverb G2| Custom Simpit- A variety of grips (TM/Virpil) on floor mounted TM Base, WinWing Super Tauris Throttles, Virpil Collective, TM Pedals, TM MFDs

Paid Module Wishlist: AH-64A, T-38, B-1B, U-2, MH-60 Pavehawk, A-10A

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Cool thanks for the explanation....yeah figured it wouldn’t really have much functionality at this point but it’s good to hear progress toward sub warfare

 

Meh, the current Kilo class currently have 2 tube-launched SLCMs (3M-54E and 3M-54E1 - submarine launched anti-ship missiles) given the placement of the Kilo's tubes it has to be underwater to fire them - so there's that.

 

(The only thing is when fired underwater these missiles are encapsulated, the capsule separates after breaching the surface - similar to UGM-84 and UGM-109, however their capsules aren't present in the modelviewer yet).

 

 

Don't forget that the Hornet is due to get the Mk-40 Destructor, which is a bottom, influence mine (converted from a high-drag Mk-83), plus near enough every surface combatant in DCS has ASW weapons - torpedoes, depth charges, ASW rockets and even ASW missiles, so there's that too. We only really have 4 aerial ASW platforms - the Tu-142 Bear-F MPA, the S-3B Viking, the SH-60B and the Ka-27. All 4 have MAD sensors, all 4 can deploy sonobuoys, all 4 can drop torpedoes and all but the SH-60B can drop depth charges.


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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Hello, I question! I have seen in the encyclopedia that the Kilo carries Igla launched MANPAD right? Has anyone managed to get them working? Regards

 

The launcher is present and mostly animated in the model viewer, AFAIK it's only fitted to a single modified 877 Kilo - B-871 and 636.3 Kilos (In the model viewer we have an improved 877 and a modified 877 but only the modified one is present in the modelviewer).


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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Hey there experts, so actually the Igla or Strela launcher , is not a MANPAD, it is actually an launcher, such as MISTRAL launched from ground vehlice?

 

No expert but the actual 'tubes' themselves are essentially a variant of the man-portable system, they've just been modified and placed on a trainable launcher (-ish).

 

When Igla and Strela and whatever is used as a man-portable system, then it's a MANPAD.

 

In the broad sense they're SAMs, that's what it 'actually' is in that sense, MANPAD more refers to the system rather than the missile.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

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The Igla (SA-16 or SA-18 ) is originally a manpads. Then they thought they can improve operations by putting those tubes on a launcher.

MISTRAL is a manpads too (heard it might be a reverse engineered Stinger) but they installed it on a portable launcher as they wanted to add a thermal imager + IFF, then on vehicle (PAMELA) to be able to quickly launch 4 of them in rapid sequence while benefiting from thermal imaging and C2I guidance.

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Hey there experts, so actually the Igla or Strela launcher , is not a MANPAD, it is actually an launcher, such as MISTRAL launched from ground vehlice?

 

 

Submarines hate helicopters, so more than one person has given long and careful thought to a sub launched short range 'acquire after launch' AAM, which just reeks of IR homing. The dangerous helos are low and generally hovering (dipping sonar) and if they're hammering the sub knows exactly where they are.

 

 

A launch would give away the subs position, but in theory it's already been found. Fire, clear the datum, and try again.

 

 

The answer to your question is 'yes'. By the time you got the hatch open for an actual PEOPLEPAD (there are women on subs, after all) the boat would have all kinds of nastiness already on top of it. These would, by necessity, have to be canister/vls launch of some kind

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A launch would give away the subs position.
True, but as do most if not all weapons launched from submarines.

 

Every weapon that breaches the surface like SLCMs, SL-AShMs and SL-ASMs leave visible smoke-trails after they leave the water, depending on environmental conditions, these could be visible from miles away, even if these are only present during the missile's short-duration boost phase. Not just that these weapons may even be picked up by RADAR from aircraft or nearby surface vessels, I'm guessing in the majority of cases this gives you a clear line of bearing to the submarine. If external acoustic conditions are poor, a submarine relying on passive SONAR (active and RADAR both betray the submarines location, periscopes and ESM masts can be spotted visually or by RADAR) might not even be aware of aircraft or surface vessels or even passive sonobuoys in the local area (say within 10nmi), once weapons that breach the surface do so, they can be readily spotted visually and larger weapons maybe picked up by RADAR - this at least gives a clear line of bearing to the likely location of the submarine.

 

Things like torpedoes will most likely have an acoustic transient, as well as the weapon itself being picked up on passive SONAR too, so there's that as well.

 

Plus, depending on the capabilities of the ASW helicopter and it's sensors, if a submarine is close enough to the surface and relatively close by, chances are it'll only be a matter of time before it's found. I think the idea behind submarine deployed SAM systems is the submarine comes to periscope depth, locates the aircraft probably using a periscope then deploys a MANPAD style SAM system mounted on a mast (as seen on the 877V Kilo we have currently in the modelviewer), meaning that the submarine doesn't have to surface to fire, other versions involve LAL missiles fired from underwater but this is still in development, it still betrays the submarine's location. Obviously surfacing the submarine so that someone can come out with a MANPAD system is a pretty futile idea - the submarine can't as easily manoeuvre defensively (speed is reduced, turning rate is reduced, submerging will take more time than it takes to retract a mast).

 

Of course this makes the submarine vulnerable as now the radar on our ASW helicopter (or MPA for that matter) will be able to see a return from the masts, however ideally that ASW platform is going down (short range at low altitude with nowhere to hide, makes for a marginal reaction time and an evasive manouever by the helicopter while it has it's dipping SONAR in the water, will most likely damage the dipping SONAR, providing a mission kill).

 

 

Obviously there's a lot of external variables which is really the ultimate decider here (depth, ambient noise levels, external visibility, thermoclines, surface ducts, sensor capability etc).


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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True, but as do most if not all weapons launched from submarines.

 

Every weapon that breaches the surface like SLCMs, SL-AShMs and SL-ASMs leave visible smoke-trails after they leave the water which depending on environmental conditions could be visible from miles away. These weapons may even be picked up by RADAR from aircraft or nearby surface vessels and depending on external conditions, a submarine may not be aware of vessels/aircraft in the nearby vicinity, however once those weapons leave the water the prominent smoke trail and possible RADAR contact of weapons will giveaway the submarine's rough location.

 

Things like torpedoes will most likely have an acoustic transient, as well as being picked up on passive SONAR too, so there's that.

 

Plus, depending on the capabilities of the ASW helicopter and it's sensors, if a submarine is close enough to the surface and relatively close by chances are it'll only be a matter of time before it's found. I think the idea behind submarine deployed SAM systems is the submarine comes to periscope depth, locates the aircraft using a periscope then deploys a MANPAD style SAM system mounted on a mast, meaning that the submarine doesn't have to surface to fire.

 

Of course this makes the submarine vulnerable as now the radar on our ASW helicopter (or MPA for that matter) will be able to see a return from the masts, however ideally that ASW platform is going down (short range at low altitude with nowhere to hide, makes for a marginal reaction time and an evasive manouever by the helicopter while it has it's dipping SONAR in the water, will most likely damage the dipping SONAR, providing a mission kill).

 

 

Obviously there's a lot of external variables which is really the ultimate decider here (depth, ambient noise levels, external visibility, thermoclines, surface ducts, sensor capability etc).

 

Not only..... if the Helo Mothership carry ahead throw ammuntion (UDAV-1) or Standoff torpedo / Depth charge missiles, that can put them into the missile launch datum as ASROC / VL-ASROC / RPK-9 Medvedka or similar. Other interesting weapons to add on DCS. On WW2 we have Depth charges, forward-throwing "hedgehog" mortar and FIDO air-dropped homing torpedos.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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I wonder if they'll add another sensor layer to the sim or (re)-use a sort of radar missile guidance for torpedoes, but really slow :)..

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