HARM loft gone forever?

HARM loft was removed in a recent OB update. I'm curious as to whether the recent change to HARM loft profile is a permanent thing now?

HARM doesn't loft at all and it seems to seriously reduce its effective range. With a TOO launch and a 20nm range (circa 20000ft alt shot), my shots fly an incredibly flat trajectory and are almost out of energy by the time of impact. Shouldn't HARM have a range approaching 60nm if launched high and fast? Anyone's else experiences since the change?

Hopefully the flight profile will be adjusted back to include a loft??

HARM loft is a function of PB mode, which is coming later.

 

Thanks

Thanks Wags. So you're confirming that by design HARM won’t self loft in either TOO or SP?

I’m familiar with the HARM PU and A/C PU options in PB mode. I assumed that, since it was modelled with a loft in TOO from the beginning you had some info that the missile would pull some loft by default. Maybe not though.

A loft shot requires a known range, to which SP and TOO do not provide. Only PB mode has a known target range.

 

Thanks

Ok, that makes sense now that I think about it. Thanks.

Maybe someone needs to put together a HARM employment guide or something, with rules of thumb for TOO shot approx ranges versus launch altitude etc. Would be interested to know RL guidance on this.....wishful thinking I know.

Did I spot a new 3D model for HARM? Looking good.

A loft shot requires a known range, to which SP and TOO do not provide. Only PB mode has a known target range.

 

Thanks

Will PB TOO be a thing in our Hornet? AFAIK it's similar to the TOO JDAM mode, where you can use any self ground designation (WPDSG, TGP, A/G radar, HUD, etc.) rather than preplanned points.

I have gotten good loft by launching with a pitch of 15 -20 nose up and putting target on bottom of TOO screen .. around 40 NM from target

https://clips.twitch.tv/TubularTsunderePlumageThunBeast

I tend to launch from 30,000ft or more on targets such as the SA-11.

Something like an SA-15 Requires you to be lower so that it will track you but it also severely reduces range.

For more range 35,000ft or more with or without a manual loft like bullet0 describes works too.

I will say you can even go to 40,000ft but you lose maneuverability up there to defensive action is tougher.

Will PB TOO be a thing in our Hornet? AFAIK it's similar to the TOO JDAM mode, where you can use any self ground designation (WPDSG, TGP, A/G radar, HUD, etc.) rather than preplanned points.

PB TOO? These are two different modes. We already have TOO mode and SP mode and soon we will get PB mode too. PB for the HARM should be pretty similar to PB for the JDAM I suppose.

PB TOO? These are two different modes. We already have TOO mode and SP mode and soon we will get PB mode too. PB for the HARM should be pretty similar to PB for the JDAM I suppose.

I assume it means something akin to TOO mode for the JDAMs - i.e. where you can launch at a TGT rather than having to enter the coordinates in beforehand. From how the HARM has been implemented in other sims, if no PB mission is selected, then PB can use the TGT as a PB TOO mission. As far as I know, PB missions will have to be set in the mission editor, so this would allow us to set a PB mission on the fly and loft a HARM towards a set of coordinates that weren't set up beforehand.

I assume it means something akin to TOO mode for the JDAMs - i.e. where you can launch at a TGT rather than having to enter the coordinates in beforehand. From how the HARM has been implemented in other sims, if no PB mission is selected, then PB can use the TGT as a PB TOO mission. As far as I know, PB missions will have to be set in the mission editor, so this would allow us to set a PB mission on the fly and loft a HARM towards a set of coordinates that weren't set up beforehand.

I don't know how PB will be like with the HARM, but with the JDAM you can enter coordinates for PB mode in the cockpit.

I don't know how PB will be like with the HARM, but with the JDAM you can enter coordinates for PB mode in the cockpit.

So Wags has been talking about needing the new waypoint/data cartridge system in place before we get PB, which makes it sound like you won't just be able to make a PB mission from the cockpit in flight like we can with the JDAM PP.

Hmm, I guess we will have to wait and see then.

So Wags has been talking about needing the new waypoint/data cartridge system in place before we get PB, which makes it sound like you won't just be able to make a PB mission from the cockpit in flight like we can with the JDAM PP.

I pretty sure that PB mode will use up to 6 pre-planned threat points that are configured in the ME. They can’t be changed or created in the airplane. I think the type of threat the seeker will look for is even hard coded at this point.

You can’t use PB on a TGT in a ‘JDAM TOO’ esque mode....I think....

It does make the hornets HARM implementation a bit inflexible, if you’re familiar with HARM in the F-16 it has a difffernt (better) mechanic. You use it’s ‘Position’ mode to select any pre loaded WP and match it to any threat you want, all in the cockpit. Also has the HTS, but that’s altogether more capable.

There is TOO and there is PB TOO. Two different modes (or rather one mode and one submode of PB). Yes, the naming is that stupid/confusing.

You cannot enter PB coordinates from the cockpit like you can for JDAM. PB TOO is similar to JDAM TOO.

My question was if we are getting PB TOO as well.

There is TOO and there is PB TOO. Two different modes (or rather one mode and one submode of PB). Yes, the naming is that stupid/confusing.

 

You cannot enter PB coordinates from the cockpit like you can for JDAM. PB TOO is similar to JDAM TOO.

 

My question was if we are getting PB TOO as well.

Oh, my bad then, sorry. I wasn't aware that there is such a submode.

I wonder why it is not possible to compute the (at least approximate) range for the HARM even in TOO or SP. The slant angle (from HARM seeker) and the altitude is known (from the A/C). Assuming a negligible elevation difference of target and a/c position compared to the altitude of the a/c (which is fulfilled at ~20000ft i would say ;) ) then with simple trigonometry, a slant range (or ground range) can be estimated. It is not exact though but at least to judge whether to follow a loft pattern or not it should be enough.

I wonder why it is not possible to compute the (at least approximate) range for the HARM even in TOO or SP.

That's pretty much exactly what HTS and that kind of pods do. I suppose there's not enough "brainpower" in missile on aircraft mission computers to do that kind of calculation. With a/c computers it might be so that there is power available, but it would require too much of a development. After all, that hardware and software are very purpose-built, you can't just slam another program there like you do on the desktop.

That's pretty much exactly what HTS and that kind of pods do. I suppose there's not enough "brainpower" in missile on aircraft mission computers to do that kind of calculation. With a/c computers it might be so that there is power available, but it would require too much of a development. After all, that hardware and software are very purpose-built, you can't just slam another program there like you do on the desktop.

I thought Emitter Location Systems like the HTS pod do calculate the emitter location through triangulation, just like the U/22A ELINT pod of the Viggen already does in DCS?

Yes, a new AGM-88 HARM model was added, and a new AGM-154A/C JSOW model will be coming soon (already done and in internal build).

 

Thanks

I also noticed the R-73 and some other missiles got 3D and texture updates as well. Can we expect this for all of the missiles in DCS? It is mostly needed for the R-27 series since those now stick out like a sore thumb.

After ED changed this (to be more realistic I understand) the AI struggles a lot to make their HARMs reach target.

Now the HARMs have a lot less range thatn when they lofted. Even with manual lofting (from aircraft) they dont reach such good ranges as before becuase inmediately after launch they start pointing the nose to the source of radiation, losing a lot of energy.

All of this is realistic I think, just pointing it out that the AI should account for this change.