F-16 evaded SIX R-27ER missiles!

...Well, this is embarrassing. Just reviewed the track and realized that my 2nd ER didn't kill him after all. He was trying to terrain mask in flat terrain and discovered that hiding underground isn't quite the same thing...

Just reflew it. Here's a "better" example: Su-27 R-27ER vs F-16

 

2. It seems that the AIM-120 is an excellent missile both at BVR and ALSO WVR modes. This one missile can be launched BVR and then when WVR it immediately goes "Pitbull" so is actually in this way more dangerous. It seems the R-27ER is a BVR only missile. So a bandit armed only with AIM-120s is capable both at long AND close range whereas an aircraft armed with only R-27ERs might as well have nothing when in close range. Is this correct? If so, do any of the Russian missiles have any advantage over the American ones? I'm starting to think Russian aircraft / missiles are seriously disadvantaged in this game, and that the AIM-120 is overpowered in comparison.

 

Thanks for any input.

Russia have the R-73. When in combat, I never rely on R 27, I only use them as decoy. I always try to get as close as possible and then lauch Archer for the win :). Also R-77 is can be very deadly, especially in close range.

Guys, R27-ER is best missile in DCS.

Miss? All missiles can miss.

Sorry if I come off harsh. At a certain point it’s hard to learn verbally past the point once you know how the systems function......

Hey not at all. The more useful information I can get the better! And you always give me loads of good replies (including in this thread) so I very much appreciate that! Also thanks for the tip about the J-11, I didnt even know I had this aircraft to fly! Ive played a few missions now using the R-77 and so far it seems like a great missile.

Ok. you need to take care of your launch momentum. You are wasting you missiles in a enemy fighter is doing notching like crazy......

Wow thanks for going through and providing such an analysis! Lots to think about here. And yes the evasion ability of the enemy shocked me also.

Just reflew it. Here's a "better" example: Su-27 R-27ER vs F-16

Thanks Ironhand. The tactic you describe above Ive watched quite a few videos on (possibly from yourself actually) and ive used that tactic successfully via an F15C. I took him out exactly as you describe, with the two missiles. However simply changing the bandit to an F16 and it's a different story. Thanks for the track, I will get it watched ASAP.

Russia have the R-73. When in combat, I never rely on R 27, I only use them as decoy. I always try to get as close as possible and then lauch Archer for the win :). Also R-77 is can be very deadly, especially in close range.

Yeah a few people have said the 73 is probably the best IR missile in the game. I do have quite a high kill rate when I use these also.

Guys, R27-ER is best missile in DCS.

 

Miss? All missiles can miss.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Thanks to everyone who posted.

He came to that conclusion because the R-27ER has probably the 2nd best E pole for a BVR missile in DCS this lets you both run down people very well but makes it so you can divide and conquer a flight of AMRAAM fighters and limit their ability to mutually support each other

Guys, R27-ER is best missile in DCS.

 

Miss? All missiles can miss.

Negative, R-60M is. You only need 6 to kill F-15.

@OP

There are a million and one threads in these forums explaining how to use Flanker or R27ER or how useless they can be etc. So much great info has been written about it, to not search for it is doing yourself an injustice.

Negative, R-60M is. You only need 6 to kill F-15.

Oh c´mon those are not that bad. Sure they are not as good as R 73, but with proper use you can easily kill Eagle with only one of those(or more likely 2).

my experience the missile is basically useless outside WVR. if missile time of flight < bandit's time to notch you can achieve a high PK, otherwise you use the missile to position yourself for a merge and then kill him with archer / ET.

over short distances, it's a pretty good missile. it moves very quickly, while the motor's burning it's almost impossible to dodge. everything else it has is a downside, though. seekerhead will let you down 99+% of the time if there is a couple of chaff bundles in the air.

...

How did you come to this conclusion?...

12 years in love with Flanker.

Negative, R-60M is. You only need 6 to kill F-15...

Puuush! :D

Just reflew it. Here's a "better" example: Su-27 R-27ER vs F-16

Hey Iron your attachment doesn't appear to be working. Could you please check it? Sorry only getting to it now. Thanks.

12 years in love with Flanker.

Ah ok cool. From searching the forums it does seem opinions are mixed at best regarding this missile. Some posts from 2019 even discussing it. I would imagine after 12 years you probably know how to use it better than most though.

@OP

There are a million and one threads in these forums explaining how to use Flanker or R27ER or how useless they can be etc. So much great info has been written about it, to not search for it is doing yourself an injustice.

Cheers for the reply Frostie. Yes indeed there are, and I am working my way through all of them. I found a Flanker guide where the guy basically said they are totally useless and to use the ET instead lol.

my experience the missile is basically useless outside WVR. if missile time of flight < bandit's time to notch you can achieve a high PK, otherwise you use the missile to position yourself for a merge and then kill him with archer / ET.

 

over short distances, it's a pretty good missile. it moves very quickly, while the motor's burning it's almost impossible to dodge. everything else it has is a downside, though. seekerhead will let you down 99+% of the time if there is a couple of chaff bundles in the air.

The 6 missiles I launched at the Falcon were all within visual and I believe motors burning (although would need to check that) but yeah it seems they are ridiculously susceptible to chaff. I still need to put into place the feedback I have received so far in this thread however, so perhaps with some tweaks on my part I can improve my situation.

Hey Iron your attachment doesn't appear to be working. Could you please check it? Sorry only getting to it now. Thanks.

...

I assume you mean you couldn't download it. IF that's the case, it's attached below.

Su-27 R-27ER vs F-16 AIM-120.trk

I assume you mean you couldn't download it. IF that's the case, it's attached below.

Well not so much that I couldnt download it, more that it wasn't available to download.

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Thanks for the alternative link, it's working fine.

Ok so just watched your track. Thanks again for doing that. I was already familiar with the tactics that you demonstrated (I do not mean that in a smart arse kind of way) and ive used the same myself against AI F15s very successfully.

I noticed that you launched your first missile before the middle notch, was this to put the bandit on defensive? I see what you mean now about the little dot, keeping it to the inside of the range bar so as to keep a radar lock - that's a great tip!

I noticed the bandit didn't fire a single missile at you. What skill level did you give to the AI?

Cheers.

Additional question - something I have just noticed. I created a mission where I start flying behind 2 F-16s. My radar is off to begin with and it stays off for the duration. When I switch on the EOS and lock one of the F-16s up, they pull up and start dispensing flares immediately. How are they aware that I have locked onto them when my radar is off? At this stage I haven't even fired a missile yet, simply locked on. Is this normal?

As long as I fly behind them and do not lock onto any of them, they just keep flying totally oblivious to me. But the minute I lock on they instantly take evasive action.

Thanks.

The AI cheats.

Technically, your laser rangefinder is firing but they have no equipment to detect this.

 

I noticed that you launched your first missile before the middle notch, was this to put the bandit on defensive? I see what you mean now about the little dot, keeping it to the inside of the range bar so as to keep a radar lock - that's a great tip!

 

I noticed the bandit didn't fire a single missile at you. What skill level did you give to the AI?

 

Cheers.

Yes, to put him on the defensive. If you wait until Rtr (that line you spoke of indicating the max launch range against a maneuvering target), there will be an AIM-120 well on its way to you. If you look at the track, you’ll see that, given the situation, the line is already down to 18 km. Even with a crank, the range will continue closing fairly rapidly and you’ll soon be WVR.

I think it was “high” for a skill setting. That’s default, I think, and I don’t recall changing it. You can open the track in the ME and double check, though.

The AI cheats.

 

Technically, your laser rangefinder is firing but they have no equipment to detect this.

I thought that was maybe the case. I wish there was an option to turn all the AI cheating off, it's really starting to annoy me. And im not ready to go online just yet.

Yes, to put him on the defensive. If you wait until Rtr (that line you spoke of indicating the max launch range against a maneuvering target), there will be an AIM-120 well on its way to you. If you look at the track, you’ll see that, given the situation, the line is already down to 18 km. Even with a crank, the range will continue closing fairly rapidly and you’ll soon be WVR.

 

I think it was “high” for a skill setting. That’s default, I think, and I don’t recall changing it. You can open the track in the ME and double check, though.

Thanks!

I wish there was an option to turn all the AI cheating off, it's really starting to annoy me. And im not ready to go online just yet.

AI update is what we all are waiting for - one of the most wanted DCS thing.

I don't know where it comes from but there is some ongoing feeling that you have to be ready to go online. You don't. Your PC otoh has to :)

It’s true. No need to feel nervous going online, I use to suffer from that

Get yourself tacview then get online and get shot down a lot, the only way you're going to learn what to do after the first missile launch.

Fighting AI is a sure way to pick up bad habits for a real PvP fight in MP. Frostie nailed it on the head above ^^

No shortcuts. Experience and practice is king.

I thought that [cheating] was maybe the case. I wish there was an option to turn all the AI cheating off, it's really starting to annoy me. And im not ready to go online just yet...

The AI isn't cheating in this situation. They're just hyper-vigilant. Unless you approach from their blind spot (low rear quadrant) they will see the launch, know that you're the enemy, and react. In any other rear approach with your radar off, prior to the launch, they don't know whether you are friend or foe. So you get the results you've experienced.

Attached are 4 short tracks in a ZIP file: EOS Search, Vertical Scan, Bore, and Fi0. Didn't bother with Helmet.

Su-27 vs F-16 EOPS-27.zip

The AI isn't cheating in this situation. They're just hyper-vigilant. Unless you approach from their blind spot (low rear quadrant) they will see the launch, know that you're the enemy, and react. In any other rear approach with your radar off, prior to the launch, they don't know whether you are friend or foe. So you get the results you've experienced.

 

Attached are 4 short tracks in a ZIP file: EOS Search, Vertical Scan, Bore, and Fi0. Didn't bother with Helmet.

But I didnt launch. I just locked on. I can understand if I had of launched, as I am aware the AI basically has superhuman 360 vision. How can they possibly know im there just from locking on and not launching, when up to that point they have no idea?

Thanks will watch the tracks now.

I have watched your tracks and I can see that when you locked on, the enemy didn't react. That's how it should be. However please see below track. I approach 2 F-16s from behind with radar off. EOS is on. I proceed to simply lock the target, and you will see both F-16s immediately climbing vertical and dispensing flares. I continue to fly straight to highlight how dramatically they change course.

I can understand if I launched the missile, they could see this and take evasive action. I also know that wingmen can provide extended visual range where one pilot cant see. But this is none of that.

Is there something I'm doing that you aren't or vice versa? I'm in the J-11, could that be it?

I have tried different skill levels with the AI but I find the same result.

F-16S Evade.zip

I have watched your tracks and I can see that when you locked on, the enemy didn't react. That's how it should be. However please see below track. I approach 2 F-16s from behind with radar off. EOS is on. I proceed to simply lock the target, and you will see both F-16s immediately climbing vertical and dispensing flares. I continue to fly straight to highlight how dramatically they change course.

 

I can understand if I launched the missile, they could see this and take evasive action. I also know that wingmen can provide extended visual range where one pilot cant see. But this is none of that.

 

Is there something I'm doing that you aren't or vice versa? I'm in the J-11, could that be it?

 

I have tried different skill levels with the AI but I find the same result.

OK. That would be cheating. They should not be reacting simply having locked them at that range with EOS. If you had gotten closer before locking them up, you would have seen them react to you regardless of what you were doing--lock, no lock, Nav mode, whatever.

There are two major differences between our tracks. The first is that you are approaching from roughly co-altitude, while I'm about 500 m below. The other is that your F-16 has a wingman, while mine does not. Without a wingman there's no possibility for the AI to spot me. His own aircraft blocks his view of my approach.

As far as the wingman is concerned, it may be that the sim doesn't bother with the niceties of whether or not the wingman can "see" and simply takes it as a given. That's one of those things that can only be determined by further testing...which I don't plan to undertake. :) I guess we already know that the AI reaction to threat is tied to the "lockup" and not the launch.