R-27ER question

If only the Soviets/Russians would have asked GGTharos before developing all their useless weapons :)

If only they have asked you, you mean :) Really, tell me how your comment applies when they are not using that missile.

I am sure that the R-27P has its application.

Sure, what is it? Who uses it?

Antennas always transmit some power in all directions, HF does not care if it should only have certain lobes in theory. There will also be additional reflections from the plane itself behind the radar.

That's great, you're not saying anything new.

The R-27P may only see the radar during the periods where it directs its waves directly at the missile from far away, but that should be enough to get in closer range. Then it should be able to home in nicely. It is said to have a very sensitive seeker that has far more range than the missile itself.

Yeah, sure. See how well that works for missiles that target stationary radars - and then tell me why is it that you believe Russia has a magical AA ARM? :)

And it receives mostly direct radiation which also has to travel only half the distance compared to very low power reflected radiation that has to travel to the target and back.

Yep, and I know the equation for this by heart - the simple radar equation. And? What does this have to do with how you're going to process the signal for guidance, filter out noise and who-knows-what-else?

Again, tell me, if that missile is so great ... why does it look like it isn't in anyone's inventory?

Passive homing is more accurate for air targets because of the shorter wavelengths that allow for more accurate bearing with the same antenna area, as well as the absence of environment reflections.

Especially against an oponent that is also using SARH missiles it should work perfectly, because the missile does nothing else than what a regular R-27R would do, expect that it has to tune the seeker to the frequency of the hostile radar.

(Minus the accurate range information)

Passive homing is more accurate for air targets because of the shorter wavelengths that allow for more accurate bearing with the same antenna area, as well as the absence of environment reflections.

What, like there are no x-band or higher fire control radars for SAMs? You're just making stuff up now. And what absence of reflection? This is the most LOL thing ever, it's like saying IR missiles are great ... when you shoot them in look-up against an afterburning target on a cold, clear night. Every single RWR, radar and whatever-else advertisement today talks about working in an 'RF-dense environment'.

Especially against an oponent that is also using SARH missiles it should work perfectly, because the missile does nothing else than what a regular R-27R would do, expect that it has to tune the seeker to the frequency of the hostile radar.

(Minus the accurate range information)

Again, you're making stuff up. Please show me where it has ever 'worked perfectly', I'd really liked to know. You're literally doing nothing short of speculating, and reality is dead set against you right now.

Of course I am just speculating.

But as the R-27P was/is up for export the missile itself has to be working.

For sure. The question is, what is its intended use case? As I mentioned before, the Shrike was an ARM in an AIM-7 body, for example. No one appears to be using it for air to air, or even using it at all, and to me this says:

1) Not terribly useful in A2A compared to other types of guidance

2) Not terribly useful as an ARM where there are dedicated ARM munitions

So, I don't know, I consider it to be a more advanced equivalent to a Shrike/Sidearm

@GGTharos you might have forgotten this discussion (from 2006) ;)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=13220&page=2

SwingKid has an interesting post with pictures:

"It seems that the version with passive seeker 9B-1032E was shown for the first time at MAKS 2005:

I read somewhere that in addition to anti-ECCM role, it IS also supposed to be targetted against enemy fighter radars (to force them to shut down), just like an ARM against a SAM site."

-SK

Also some general info on the first page of that thread:

The R-27P and -EP missile - P for passivnaya (passive) - are equipped with a PRGS-27 (or 9B-1032) seeker developed by CKBA. This operates at centimetric wavelengths, and guides the round to the radar of enemy fighter aircraft. The missile is intended for use against enemy fighters at long range, when the launch aircraft may still be beyond the maximum range of the target's radar. Since the weapon uses passive homing, it will give the target no warning that a launch has been made.

Vympel offers two versions of the missile: the standard R-27P with a maximum range of 72km and the 'energetic' version R-27EP with a bigger rocket motor which gives a maximum range of 110km. This maintains the dual-standard policy set by the original active-radar and infrared-guided versions, which were fielded in medium (R-27R and -27T) and long-range (R-27ER and -27ET) variants respectively. The R-27P and -27EP retain the basic configuration of the earlier members of the AA-10 'Alamo' series, including the novel trapezoidal 'butterfly' control surfaces.

The homing head is capable of detecting a target from a range of more than 200km, but the R-27EP cannot carry out an interception at such distances. The flight time would exceed the operating duration of the missile's onboard power supply. Vympel is working on ways of increasing the operating time of the power supply in order to allow R-27EP engagements at up to 200km.

Yeah, I'd expect to forget a discussion from 2006 ;)

It's the same stuff, re-hashed. Chizh has said there's no trace of the 27P being available to the RuAF at all, at the same time we have no idea if it has been sold anywhere and how it is used.

And guess what - Kh-41 was also shown at a show ... it never materialized either ;)

As you write, these missiles are not fielded. Probably built in a very limited numbers.

The point is that these development versions, mockups, whatever - has been shown at MAKS to attract buyers. Just like a bunch of Su-25TM stuff that never went past papier-maché dummies and drawings. But I think it is reasonable that at some stage there has been development and tests of newer seekerheads and updates. Seems very thin to show up at MAKS with the new missiles as a "concept only". I wouldn't be surpirsed if some of these halted developments / programmes or whatever got some renewed interest and was tested in Syria.

India just bough R-27 missiles under the emergency procurement route to arm the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) fleet of Su-30MKI fighters.

Does anybody have more info? What is the reasoning behind the purchase, do they know something we don't?

It seams strange to go trough that route and buy such an old missile especial since they are already fielding the R-77s...

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25209/India_Buys__218M_Worth_R_27_Missiles_For_Its_Su_30MKI_Fighters#.XUA7tOgzZEY

They were upset recently when Pakistani amraams outranged their R-77. Said they are also buying derby missiles for the Sukhois. I believe Russia wants to sell them better R-77s

Surprised the article mentions “extended range Russian missiles” but only list R-27R T and P

I was surprised as well by this news, but they do know what they are doing.

Odd choice from a layman's perspective.

Yeah I almost feel bad the brochure range of a derby might be better than R-77 but not sure if that’s reality!

Guess it’s true the EA was never actually produced or I would think India would buy it

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-air-forces-integration-of-israeli-derby-missiles-on-sukhoi-su-30-mki-hits-russian-roadblock

Now we know why they went for the R-27s ;)

They were offered R-37s!

Russian were very clear telling India the R-77 Used in this combat was the first serie of this missile, manufactured more than 20 years ago. They advise India to purchase newer series of the same missile. After that India is not only buying more R-77, they also purchase R-27, R-73 and Kh-31 for a total price of about 300 millions dollars.

Yeah, I'd expect to forget a discussion from 2006 ;)

 

It's the same stuff, re-hashed. Chizh has said there's no trace of the 27P being available to the RuAF at all, at the same time we have no idea if it has been sold anywhere and how it is used.

 

And guess what - Kh-41 was also shown at a show ... it never materialized either ;)

This is incorrect information. R-27P/EP is in the Russian Air Force. Su-33 (and newer versions of the Su-27 (Su-27SM / Su-35, etc.)) can accurately use this missile.

In Russia, the modernization of missiles R-27

Google translator:

The first serial batch of upgraded missiles will go into service with the Aerospace Forces by the end of this year, several sources told the Izvestia news source in the Ministry of Defense. The first samples of the upgraded missiles were tested during an operation in Syria on Su-30SM and Su-35 fighters. The main modern aircraft carrier R-27 will be these winged cars. They can also be used on the Su-27, Su-33, Su-34 and MiG-29, said the interlocutors in the military department

The rocket will receive an updated control system and guidance. Modern electronics greatly facilitates aiming, which allows the pilot to pay more attention to piloting the aircraft. Guidance is performed automatically by radio emission. There is also a semi-automatic mode - in this case, the pilot will mark the target.

 

In addition, a new fuel charge has been developed for the rocket, which will give the munition an increased energy potential.

Russian text

Ракета получит обновленную систему управления и наведения. Современная электроника значительно облегчает прицеливание, что позволяет летчику больше внимания уделять пилотированию самолета. Наведение производится в автоматическом режиме по радиоизлучению. Предусмотрен и полуавтоматический режим — в таком случае летчик будет маркировать цель.

 

Кроме того, для ракеты разработан новый топливный заряд, что даст боеприпасу повышенный энергетический потенциал.

Первая серийная партия обновленных ракет поступит на вооружение Воздушно-космических сил до конца нынешнего года, рассказали «Известиям» несколько источников в Минобороны. Первые образцы модернизированных ракет были испытаны во время операции в Сирии на истребителях Су-30СМ и Су-35. Основными современными самолетами-носителями Р-27 станут именно эти крылатые машины. Их также можно будет использовать на Су-27, Су-33, Су-34 и МиГ-29, отметили собеседники в военном ведомстве

https://iz.ru/882783/aleksei-kozachenko-aleksei-ramm/v-boi-idut-stariki-istrebiteli-vooruzhat-raketami-dlia-duelei

The question isn't 'can it', the question is 'does it'? According to Chizh the Russian pilots haven't seen any of them in inventory.

Su-33 (and newer versions of the Su-27 (Su-27SM / Su-35, etc.)) can accurately use this missile.

The question isn't 'can it', the question is 'does it'? .

If the aircraft manual, spelled out the possibility of using a rocket - then this rocket was tested on it, which means this rocket exists.

According to Chizh the Russian pilots haven't seen any of them in inventory.

All Air Force pilots can not be interviewed.

R-37M also no one saw. A couple of months ago there were photos of these rockets (and more than a year photos):)

You don't need to interview all pilots, and what photos and how can you differentiate? :)

You don't need to interview all pilots, and what photos and how can you differentiate? :)

I did not understand you.

About R-27P:

Believe the word, the Akhtuba Su-35S used the following weapons: R-73, "Product 750", R-27T. R-27P, R-77, Kh-29T, Kh-31A, Kh-59M2, KAB-500Kr, KAB-500OD, KAB-1500Kr, as well as NARs and free-fall bombs.

Akhtuba - "Akhtubinsk"

Поверьте на слово, в Ахтубе Су-35С применяли следующее оружие: Р-73, "Изделие 750", Р-27Т. Р-27П, Р-77, Х-29Т, Х-31А, Х-59М2, КАБ-500Кр, КАБ-500ОД, КАБ-1500Кр, а также НАРы и свободнопадающие бомбы.

http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/6307-su-35-istoriya-serii-11/#post129824

"Изделие 470-4" - R-27P. This picture corresponds to the actual aircraft armament.

You don't need to interview all pilots, and what photos and how can you differentiate? :)

I really don’t understand how come you can keep telling the R-27 is not in Russian inventory. So saw you last time in Aim-54 thread telling is nothing imposible for such a great missile... BS...

Now suddenly you affirm R-27 doesn’t exist in Russian inventory.

Pay attention to the color of the head P-27. The R-27P has a bright yellow head.