Proper procedure for timing racetracks - Page 3 - ED Forums
 


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Old 07-19-2018, 12:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =4c=Nikola View Post
I don't think it's rude, I just think you underestimate the task.

I've yet to find official information for AET time tolerance.

If it's inside assigned minute, it's really not a big deal. I believe that's not case because that would allow two aircraft to exit with only one second separation.

If it's +-15 sec it's not a big deal.

If it's +-5 sec it starts to be a problem - you have to plan carefully for that.

If you need to hit exact second on exact mile, that's too much workload. That requires too much attention in busy airspace.


It's even more important in game where we do not have ATC to coordinate traffic.
From what I've heard it's down to the second and maybe as big as +/- 5. Any deviation in time screws up the spacing between planes and thus the recovery on deck.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:03 PM   #22
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We are in fighter planes. In real life do the pilots have to maintain standard turns like airliners have to do or can they add some power and g's and tighten it up alot to better time the exit from the stack?
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by wrl11 View Post
We are in fighter planes. In real life do the pilots have to maintain standard turns like airliners have to do or can they add some power and g's and tighten it up alot to better time the exit from the stack?
I believe that they can do what they want as long as they are on time and at the correct place for exit. The standard or half standard rate turns just make the timing easier to calculate.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:10 PM   #24
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I think minimum lateral separation for 12-50nm range, using air search radar, is 3nm. At 250kias that's 36-46 sec. Any deviation up to ±7 sec would not screw up spacing.

Additionally, ATC will control final flow to ensure separation and possible bolter reentries.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:38 PM   #25
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Timing procedure I use:
- check time-over-holding-fix when you start your outbound turn (or start an elapsed-time-counter)
- monitor the elapsed time you needed for your 180-turn (TTurn)

- as soon as out of the 180: check time-remaining-until-your-expected approach time (Tremaining)
- calc: Tremaining-Tturn=T2legs | T2legs : 2 = T1leg
- fly the outbound leg for the time you calculated (T1leg), then start your inbound turn


In other words:
- check what time you need for the first turn (to know how much time you will need for the second turn)
- check how much remaining time you have after that first turn until you have to be at the holding fix
- substract the time you will need for the 2nd turn from the remaining time you have to get the available time you have for both legs (outbound and inbound) and divide that by 2 to get the time you have to fly on the outbound leg

Edit: Use minor speed corrections on the inbound leg to compensate wind and moving-away ship, maybe start the inbound turn just a a few seconds (5-10 seconds) earlier to compensate for the moving-away ship (during a 3 minutes flight time it moves approx. 1 NM away given a boat speed of 20 kts)
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =4c=Nikola View Post
I don't think it's rude, I just think you underestimate the task.

I've yet to find official information for AET time tolerance.

If it's inside assigned minute, it's really not a big deal. I believe that's not case because that would allow two aircraft to exit with only one second separation.

If it's +-15 sec it's not a big deal.

If it's +-5 sec it starts to be a problem - you have to plan carefully for that.

If you need to hit exact second on exact mile, that's too much workload. That requires too much attention in busy airspace.


It's even more important in game where we do not have ATC to coordinate traffic.

I don't think I underestimate it, I just don't think it's all that complicated as long as you're staying on top of where you are and when you have to leave. I've done it many times either in holds or passing over a drop point to drop skydivers for SOCOM demos. In all honesty, it's nearly eyeballing it and I've done it to the second.
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:14 AM   #27
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I just read through this myself because I've been looking at the Case I and Case II/III holding patterns. CV OPS manual for the T-45 says that 6-minute patterns are standard: 2-minute turns and 1-minute legs. Performed at either max conserve fuel flow or NATOPS holding speed. CV NATOPS says holding speed is according to individual aircraft NATOPS. The Hornet's NFM-000 NATOPS only gives 220-240kts between 15,000 and 20,000 feet. And I'm guessing the max conserve fuel flow is something that needs to be calculated from the NFM-200 charts.

So problem number one is: What speed should we be flying the patterns at?

And problem number two is: How do we find out our AoB to make a 2-minute turn at whatever that speed will be...preferably without breaking out a Ti-84.
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:22 AM   #28
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you fly the pattern at max endurance speed - FPAS page will show that once it is implemented, for now you can take AoA 5.6 degree as reference.
You HAVE to adjust the standard pattern length/time to hit your expected approach time - how-to see above.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:10 PM   #29
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5.6 degreees AoA during the turns at any airspeed?
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:32 PM   #30
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5.6 in level flight provides max endurance speed (at any acft.-weight and altitude). Maintain that speed during turns as well. Minor deviations doesn't matter.

Edit: By the way - flying 4.2 AoA provides max range cruise speed.
-> page 332, chapter III-7-26, "7.2.8 Cruise" in the NATOPS
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