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The 30 mm mess up the poor mustangs...


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I guess I mixed it up with MG151/20 APHE ammo. So, still we have API in the game right? But not M-Shell. Or do we? I haven't flow the 109 for a while. Because with Minengeshoss it would probably 1 shot 1 kill, just the trajectory would be way worse.

 

Dunno about the Kurfurst's ammo load in-game. With 30mm HE it should be 1-2 hits on average to bring down a WW2 fighter. Its probably worth noting that this means 'render the plane unable to remain airborne' not 'cut the plane in half'. In my experience with discussions of WW2 German aircraft on the War Thunder forums people can sometimes get unrealistic expectations about what 'able to destroy a fighter with a single hit' means.

 

 

 

On the topic of inconsistency with the Mk108 as mentioned by several posts, the gun is a 'spud launcher' with a rather slow muzzle velocity for an air-to-air weapon (Its velocity is similar that of folding fin rockets!). This means that for a successful attack on a maneuvering fighter you will need to either fire at very close range or have Luke Skywalker level force powers for determining the amount of lead and elevation required to hit at longer distances. Furthermore, the cowling mounted machine guns have a much higher velocity, which means that you can be observing 13mm hits while the 30mm shells pass well behind the target's tail :(. If you're finding that the 30mm has little effect, try switching the machine guns off and just firing the cannon so that the tracers from the MGs don't mess with your aim.

 

IMO the AIs are significantly more durable than human players. In my experience this is mostly because they don't have complex system modeling, so damage that would cripple vital avionics (such as the targeting systems) or control systems in a player controlled aircraft doesn't really bother them. To use an example, a while back I was playing with Air to Air combat in the Ka-50. My aircraft would be essentially out of action after a single Vikhr hit, but the AI generally needed at least 2 hits to be taken out of combat even though the level of damage to his airframe was the same or worse after the first missile hit him.

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IN game there is no way to change ammo type .This is unrealistic for a hardcore simulation.

 

IF i'm doing a training mission i want training ammo. If i hunt bombers i want to choose what ammo is more effective vs bombers.Same if i hunt for fighters.

 

Look how many choices were available:

 

Type A, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm M-geschoss. Üb. o. Zerleger)

 

Tar-filled practice mine shell, made of a pressed and rolled steel body with a zinc nose piece to replace the fuze. The driving band is made of red copper and on the inside of the body is an aluminium support ring at the same height as the driving band. Note typical Mineshell round bottom that ensures an maximum explosive charge if used in HE role.

 

 

263j7tx.jpg

ou7c75.jpg

 

Type B, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm M-geschoss. Üb. o. Zerl.)

 

Tar-filled practice mineshell, made of a pressed and rolled steel body with an steel dummy fuze resembling the AZ1504 as found on 20 mm shells. The body of the shell is the same as type A, except for the fact that the upper part of the body is rolled smaller to receive the smaller 20 mm shell fuzes. This shell is probably an experiment, these shells have never been seen with a AZ 1504.

 

4iy61z.jpg

351ha9t.jpg

 

Type C, German name: 3 cm Sprenggranate Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm Sprgr. Üb. o. Zerl.)

 

Practice shell. Machined steel body, pressed steel windshield. Note the different driving band design. Note the small additional powder charge in the shellcase, consisting of finer powder than the main charge. Remains of the bag are found in some shellcases.

 

 

26240n6.jpg

2lncspz.jpg

 

Type D, German name: 3 cm Panzersprenggranate Leuchtspur Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm Pzsprgr. L.spur Üb. o. Zerl.)

 

Practice armour piercing high explosive tracer shell with dummy fuze. Shellbody and dummy fuze are made of steel. The driving band is made of copper. The shell has the same flight characteristics as the live shell but has no explosive content. Weight of the shell is 500 +/- 7 grams. Dummy fuze: 3 cm Bd. Zerleger Erzatzstuck 1592.

 

 

svnmgx.jpg

ztu2ac.jpg

 

Type E, German name: 3 cm Hochgeschwindigheit Panzersprenggranate Leuchtspur Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm H-Pzgr. L.spur Üb. o. Zerl.)

 

Practice high speed armour piercing shell with tracer. Shell body and dummy fuze are made of steel, the driving band is made of copper. Weight of the shell is 356 +/- 8 grams.

 

 

xbeczo.jpg

2ajpbh1.jpg

 

Type F, German name: 3 cm Sprenggranate Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm Sprgr. Üb. o. Zerl.)

 

Practice high explosive shell, machined steel body and bottom plug, copper driving band. The shell has no explosive contents.

 

 

1fd5pk.jpg

 

Type G, German name: unknown

Tar-filled practice mineshell with an unbalance stick for short range. Pressed and rolled steel body with an steel dummy fuze and an steel unbalance stick. The unbalance stick is bent outward on the top causing the shell to fall into unbalance shortly after leaving the barrel and thereby greatly reducing the range of the shell. Weight of shell: appr. 330 +/- 8 grams. Shell probably of experimental design.

 

 

2s1qd8o.jpg

hwk7dd.jpg

 

Type H, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss Übung Ausführung A ohne Zerleger

(3 cm M-Gesch. Üb. o. Zerl.)

 

Tar-filled practice mineshell type A. Pressed and rolled steel body with a steel dummy fuze. The driving band is made of red copper and on the inside of the shell is an aluminium ring to support the driving band. The weight of the shell is 330 +/- 8 grams.

 

2qu8c9k.jpg

 

Type I, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss 108 Ausführung A mit Zerleger

(3 cm M-Gesch. 108 Ausf.A m. Zerl.)

 

Mineshell fuzed with ZZ1589B. Pressed and rolled steel body and an aluminium fuze. Coloured yellow with a 5 mm light green band just under the fuze (meaning self-destruct shell). The shell is filled with 85 grams of HA41 (hexogen aluminium) or 85 grams of penthrite. Weight of shell: 330 +/- 8 grams.

 

2dkhh0p.jpg

20h4nr5.jpg

 

Type J, German name: 3 cm Minenbrenngranate 108 mit Zerleger

(3 cm M-Brgr. 108 Ausf.A m. Zerl.)

 

Mineshell with an incendiary element, fuzed with ZZ1589B. In fact it is the same shell as type I, except for the lower portion of the explosive charge that has been replaced with an incendiary element. It exists of a steel bushing, filled with electrontermit (thermite), ignited by the exploding shell. Thermite burns at a temperature of about 1200 degrees Celsius. Colour: yellow body with a 5 mm wide green and a 5 mm wide blue band under the fuze, green meaning self-destruct and the blue meaning incendiary. Weight of the shell: 370 +/- 8 grams.

 

28iwx36.jpg

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Type K, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss ohne Zerleger

(3 cm M-Gesch. o. Zerl.)

 

Mineshell fuzed with a non-delay AZ1587. Pressed and rolled steel body with an steel fuze adapter between body and steel fuze. The driving band is made of copper and on the inside of the shell is an aluminium ring to support the driving band. The shell is colored yellow overall, including fuze, and only has the letter M stamped on it, in black. The shell is filled with 85 gram HA41. Weight of shell: 330 +/- 8 grams.

 

 

IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/351iveh.jpg[/img]

2cqno8k.jpg

 

Type L, German name: 3 cm Brenngranate ohne Zerleger

(3 cm Brgr. o. Zerl.)

 

Incendiary mineshell fuzed with AZ1587. Pressed and rolled steel body with a steel fuze adapter and an aluminium fuze. The entire shell is filled with a pressed thermite charge, which spews fire like a roman candle after ignition. Thermite burns at a temperature of about 1200 degrees Celsius. The shell is coulored light blue overall, exept for the aluminium fuze. Weight of shell : 330 +/- 8 grams.

 

 

2jb4ebo.jpg

16iiqoj.jpg

 

Type M, German name: 3 cm Brenngranate ohne Zerleger

(3 cm Brgr. o. Zerl.)

 

Incendiary mineshell fuzed with AZ1587. Pressed and rolled steel body with a steel fuze adapter and an aluminium fuze. The entire shell is filled with an thermite charge, which spews fire like a roman candle after ignition. Thermite burns at a temperature of about 1200 degrees Celsius. The main difference with shell type L is that the shell has a cast thermite load instead of a pressed charge. It also has a steel cylinder in the bottom that functions like a centrifugal weight to balance the shell. The shell is colored light blue overall, exept for the aluminium fuze. Weight of shell: 330 +/- 8 grams.

 

 

2uif2hs.jpg

 

Type N, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss Leuchtspur mit Zerleger (day tracer) / 3 cm Minengeschoss Glimmspur mit Zerleger (night tracer)

(3 cm M-Gesch. L.spur m. Zerl. / 3 cm M-Gesch. .Gl.spur m. Zerl.)

 

Mineshell with tracer, fuzed with ZZ1589 B. After firing the tracer ignites, allowing the pilot to observe the flight path of the shell. Day and night versions were available, the latter to prevent the pilot (who had his eyes adjusted to night) being blinded by the fiercer day tracers. The shell is coloured yellow overall, with a 5 mm wide green band just under the fuze, meaning self destruct. Just above the driving band is a light or dark red 5 mm wide band, the light red meaning (fierce burning) daytracer, dark red meaning (low visibility) night tracer. Explosive charge exists of 73 grams HA41 and 3 grams of nitropenta (pink core under the fuze). Weight of the shell : 330 +/- 8 grams.

 

 

2mzfbpx.jpg

nv43l2.jpg

 

Type O, German name: 3 cm Minengeschoss Leuchtspur Übung ohne Zerleger

(3 cm M-Gesch. L.spur o. Zerl.)

 

Tar-filled practice mineshell with tracer. Fuzed with an dummy steel fuze. In fact the same shell as type N, but practice type. Also found in day and night tracer type. Colour of shell: gray with a light or dark red 5 mm wide band just above the driving band. Weight of shell: 330 +/- 8 grams

 

m73wo1.jpg

 

Type X, German name: unknown

 

Experimental armour piercing tracer shell, in many ways resembling type E. The outer body is machined to a larger ogive for lower drag. The three notches on the outside of the body make sure the shell stays in line with the barrel. The shell and bottom plug are made of steel, the driving band is made of copper

 

 

2ltt2mx.jpg

 

ZZ 1589 B fuse

 

Due to the riffling of the barrel, the shell is given a high rotational speed during firing. This leads to centrifugal forces that push the six balls (7) outwards, forcing them in the collar ring and keeping the firing pin housing (4) which holds the firing pin (5) in upper position. Meanwhile the wrapped safety coil (6) rolls out, thereby opening the way for the firing pin housing to move downward forced by spring (8), however held back by the balls in the groove. At impact the firing pin housing with firing pin is simply hammered down in the duplex detonator (the balls are forced back into the firing pin housing), exploding the shell. If the rotational speed decreases too much (long time of flight, i.e. the shell missed target) the force of the spring will force the balls back into the firing pin housing after which it moves down due to the spring force. This forces the firing pin into the duplex detonator (10), exploding the shell. This description also applies to the ZZ 1589 A fuse.

 

 

295plp0.jpg

5ygkgl.jpg

 

AZ 1587 fuse

 

While at rest, the centrifugal safety pins (5) prevent the firing pin housing (3) holding the firing pin (4) from moving over the hole in the safety plate (9). They are held in this position by the the safety coil (6). During firing, the shell starts to rotate due to the riffling, making the centrifugal safety pins move outwards, overpowering the safety coil, allowing the firing pin housing (3) to move to its central position. Immediately after firing the shell starts to loose speed due to aerodynamic drag. This deceleration makes the ball (7) move forward inside the the adapter body (2). As soon as the ball has reached the top position, it will fall in a recess in the firing pin housing, thereby making the housing heavier on the side of the ball. Centrifugal force will now swing the ball outward , thereby pulling the firing pin housing in its central position, with the firing pin over the hole in the safety plate. At impact the firing pin is hammered into the Duplex detonator, thereby exploding the shell.

 

 

jtbgwy.jpg

315jtia.jpg

 

Duplex detonator

 

The duplex detonator consists of a detonator body (1) with a firing cap (2), filled with lead azide at the top and penthrite at the bottom. It is ignited by the firing pin of the fuze being pushed in. It can be found in shells from 15 up to 88 mm, but it is most commonly used in shells up to 50mm.

 

 

2irugd5.jpg

 

The VC 70 delayed duplex detonator delays the exploding of the shell for about 10 cm of flight, so the shell explodes after passing the aircraft skin, inside the aircraft. After the firing pin has hit the firing cap (3) the flame travels through a small hole outward into a circular chamber on the outside of the delay element (2). From there the flame travels half round the circular chamber where it follows a hole leading to the lower firing cap (4). The lower firing cap will ignite the penthrite charge, exploding the shell.

 

 

wc263c.jpg

 

 

Sorry for double post but i could't post more than 20 images in one reply.

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I dont find that to be true at all about the AI, yes I have seen issues, and they have been reported, but for the most part, I dont have an issue taking down the AI.

 

Well i posted the results of a historical test on post 7 this thread ad it clearly shows the 30mm cannon in game does not perform realistic.

 

The test shows that you get a 28 percent chance to kill a p47 with one hit from the front and below.And the test also shows in the vast majority of cases it's mostly structural damage that kills the p47.

 

Can you show me a one shot kill on a p51 from the angle shown in the test ? Because i tried it hundreds of times and it's impossible .

 

Also according to to my poll aprox 60 people voted the 30mm cannon is not working as is should and roughly 20 voted it is working as it should.

 

You got both historical documents and majority telling you that you are wrong .

 

When you shoot the Ai there is sometimes trailing smoke.The liquid that produces the smoke does not seem to be finite.It just goes on and on smoking and smoking. If that is hidraulic liquid it should render the controls unusable.If it's cooler liquid it should cause the engine to overheat.BUt the Ai goes on and on trailing smoke like it's nothing.

 

 

P51 vs 109 the same thing as above.Damage modeling needs to be improved .


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and majority telling you that you are wrong

 

What the majority thinks is of no importance whatsoever. Your other docs may, however, be of importance. We'll see what the devs say.

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It's unfair to single out the 30mm as being 'broken' because I don't think it really is. It's the damage model of the WWII birds is what needs work and by fixing that all of the ordnance in the simulation (of all the modules) would perform much closer to specs. Sorry for off-topic.

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It's unfair to single out the 30mm as being 'broken' because I don't think it really is. It's the damage model of the WWII birds is what needs work and by fixing that all of the ordnance in the simulation (of all the modules) would perform much closer to specs. Sorry for off-topic.

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IMHO damage model has not modified since the early of 2000. At those time the problem was solved by increasing the mass of explosives in shells (we can see that in lua scripts). and If we do not have advanced physical damage model for simulation fragments of the explosion it was a reasonable temporary solution to the problem. And now we can see realistic filling explosives mass in LUA scripits for ww2 shells, but we don't have advanced physical model for explosion, like in old time.


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Also according to to my poll aprox 60 people voted the 30mm cannon is not working as is should and roughly 20 voted it is working as it should.

 

 

I am happy for you and your poll, but what has been shown to you over and over, is that the damage model needs love. So while you fight so hard to prove there is an issue, ED has already acknowledge this, I know you like making big posts about stuff, assuming that maybe ED doesnt know what they are doing, but all this stuff is known, all the issues are known.

 

But all that said, and right now I fly the 109 pretty much all the time, in a dogfight with the P-51, I have no issue getting a kill. I know that there are issues, I know all of this, yet I still say that 9 times out of ten, when I put my guns on the P-51, it falls to the ground, usually not in one piece.

 

So once again. Its acknowledged by the devs that there are issues with the damage model. This also means that interaction with the damage model with different types of rounds may not yield the correct effect each time. This pretty much goes for all ED aircraft, its just more visible with the WWII/Korea style planes.

 

But we have talked about this before haven't we.

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I really dont, I think a lot of people underestimate the drop of the rounds or over estimate other factors...

 

I definitely agree with that and I can't speak to their experiences. I can only speak to mine, and seeing the amount of 30mm hits in the debrief screen. Like I said, sometimes it takes a single round, and other times I can put 15-20 (confirmed hits) into P-51 and not really see it do anything.

 

I never considered the damage model being the problem. That would explain a lot of the inconsistencies I personally experience. Good to hear that ED is aware of it and looking into it. Hopefully it will eventually lead to being able to change our ammunition on the ground as well :thumbup:

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This controversy regarding Mk108 power/accuracy is getting nowhere.. Funny thing is that, not only once, but many times I saw P51(including mine) flying perfectly with huge holes in the wings. Conclusion is.. FM and DM should be improved and ED is working on both of them. Also, remember that Bf109 is still in its beta stage.. Patient we must be.. my friends.

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This controversy regarding Mk108 power/accuracy is getting nowhere.. Funny thing is that, not only once, but many times I saw P51(including mine) flying perfectly with huge holes in the wings. Conclusion is.. FM and DM should be improved and ED is working on both of them. Also, remember that Bf109 is still in its beta stage.. Patient we must be.. my friends.

 

Its less if any about the FM, and mostly about the DM.

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