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stick forces-please make them optional


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yeah sure, options are nonsense :doh:

 

also, testing a little further i noticed something like a curvature setting on the pitch...a friend of mine tested as well and sees the same...

 

moving the stick away from center on the pitch axis...first close to the center the virtual stick will hardly move, but the farther away from the center, the more it will catch up with your actual stick movement,up to a point, where the virtual stick will move more than your actual joystick.(of course only to the point where the pilot isnt able to pull anymore force) so we have a curvature setting implemented now as well it seems :huh:


Edited by 9./JG27 DavidRed
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also, testing a little further i noticed something like a curvature setting on the pitch...a friend of mine tested as well and sees the same...

 

moving the stick away from center on the pitch axis...first close to the center the virtual stick will hardly move, but the farther away from the center, the more it will catch up with your actual stick movement,up to a point, where the virtual stick will move more than your actual joystick.(of course only to the point where the pilot isnt able to pull anymore force) so we have a curvature setting implemented now as well it seems :huh:

 

No, this is actually the dynamic behavior of the reduced agility filter you are observing. It depends on the speed of your input.

 

Yo-Yo explicitly denied any "curve" being applied to the input model (other than the user curve in the control setup).

This non-linearity is completely useless to simulate inaccuracy (many of people always have this non-linearity for their joysticks). It's a kind of dynamic inaccuracy because, at least, there is no problem to put even 32 kg weight to the desired point. But not fast.

 

To understand this dynamic behavior refer to Low-pass_filter on Wikipedia and pay special attention to the concepts "delay" and "phase shift".


Edited by PhoenixBvo
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So, gentlemen, you have very differnet ideas about stick movement. We had whinings that this forces were not implemented and it was awfull and not realistic, now we are told that this restrictions are not realistic.

 

So, I have to say that RESTRICTIONS ARE REALISTIC because they make the plane as close to its handling characteristics as game controllers allow to do.

 

THe only way to overcome this - to train different ways to control the plane. For example - not to pull the joystick beyond the point you feel you can not increase the turn rate further.

THe turn rate itself and the speed are good cues to feel the plane behaviour.

 

I like what you did YoYo with 1.2.15 It finaly flies similar to 109. It makes the 109 believable and actually brings a lot to the feeling of flight.

 

Before the 109 felt like flying through vacum of space where only your wings blow up for some reason. Now there is weight to the plane.:thumbup:

 

EDIT:

 

@David You could pull out from 700kph dive with stick only(alerions would be stiff already though). Many pilots did that, but it took a lot of strenght to do. Pilot needed to "work" that stick. It took very long to recover. At 750kph the stick should be stiff.

 

This is the best way to representing that struggle. You cannot deflect the stick IRL fully at 700kph unless you are are Arnold Schwarzenegger.


Edited by Solty

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Are we going to see similar behaviour on other aircrafts aswell?

 

Yes, but only if the certain aircraft has these restrictions.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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then i will quote yourself again what you said earlier:

 

"in DCS we decided to have controls movement, so control surfaces as they are in reality. That's the point. This way the simulated FM fits the real one regarding required stick movement. Of course we understood that shorter travel of the majority of game controllers will require less travels to get the same result comparing the real aircraft. Nevertheless, this model gives good feeling even if you get the real plane stick after hundreds hours in virtual plane. I had an opportunity to compare the real P-51 to its DCS twin... the feeling was that the real plane behaves exactly the same you use to feel it in DCS regardless of higher forces at the controls.

 

Excessive control forces in any simulation can be done using so called cutting force (any movement of the virtual stick are not available beyond this point) preceding with the zone of low responce agility. So, for example, you can pull the stick up to 70 kg but accurate piloting is not available since the force is higher than, say, 20-30 kg."

 

and i agree with that completely...i cant understand why you now force the exact oposite on us...make it optional and everybody will be happy.

 

Stop... do you think we have made something different?

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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To DavidRed, because the 109 before with no stiffening was more realistic, yep. ;)

 

Just think that you're just using one hand on the stick, after all, for a plane that requires 2 hands for aggressive maneuvers past 500km/h, your other hand shouldn't even be able to use the throttle and other stuffs ;)

 

Anyway, plane is more realistic now, just be a better pilot. ;)


Edited by GrapeJam
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Yes, but only if the certain aircraft has these restrictions.

YAY!:thumbup:

 

The P-51 already has stick forces. No idea about the 190, but it was supposed to have very light controls.

 

It feels like it has. I tried to pull at 700kph and recovery was steady and not to quick. It was quick by WW2 aircraft standards. Nevertheless I was not able to destroy my wings with one pull as the pilot lacked the strenght to do that at this particular speed.

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also these stick forces are completely left out for the rudder....so at any speed you can still push the rudder completely the full range without a problem....

so what we have now, is a mixed thing...

 

the elevators are affected by the stick forces, and are pretty unresponsive now.(i think its overdone as well...at 300kph a pilot is not able to pull the stick fully back?i doubt that)

 

the ailerons are affected as well...by far not that much though(seems correct considering the lower forces you need for ailerons)

 

the rudder though is not affected...in this combination, it now feels completely wrong(especially as the rudder probably even in a 109 is very likely the one control surface you need the most force to move it at higher speeds).

at a 700kph dive i pull the stick fully back, my wings dont break (hey hey, :cheer3nc:) but only because my pilot pulls like 2cm on the stick. wings usually still break long before my pilot notices even the most subtle black out effects.

(so in general we can still turn just as tight....whether with the stick forces enabled or not, the one limiting factor are the paper wings anyway.without those stick forces you dont turn tighter out of magic)

 

if i push the rudder, it reacts accordingly to my inputs and without any delay i can push the full range right or left...

 

weird combination.

 

that brings me to the next problem of these so called "realistic" stick forces...now with them implemented, i can pull on my stick at 700kph completely back, and dont have to fear that i brake my wings...i do that at 400kph, and there it goes. really realistc :)

 

all in all, as it is now, i hope the devs reconsider to implement it at all in its current state into the official version, and once tweaked, make it optional.so people can choose whether to fly with "force input" or "position input".

 

The stick forces now are exactly that they were in real 109. Yes, and at 700 kph IAS you have to pull about 20 kgf for any centimeter of stick travel. I mean the real plane.

So, as I wrote some time ago, the cut force is implemented and you are out of precise controlling if the force is above 32 kgf and you are out of control if the force is greater than 70 kg.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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To DavidRed, because the 109 before with no stiffening was more realistic, yep. ;)

 

Just think that you're just using one hand on the stick, after all, for a plane that requires 2 hands for aggressive maneuvers past 500km/h, your other hand shouldn't even be able to use the throttle and other stuffs ;)

 

 

have you read my posts?i think not...

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yes. also, why have it not implemented at all on the rudder?on any of the ww2 aircraft?

 

As it is still beta :) and we have not find yet exact pedal forces for 109. Ok, if we do not find for the next patch we can use something like P-51 limitations.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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have you read my posts?i think not...

You have a better idea of implementing stick force for players don't have long stick costing 500$?

 

It's the first step in the right direction, and will be tuned, it's a far better option that having "optional stick force"(which we all know that nobody will use), deal.with.it ;)

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YAY!:thumbup:

 

 

 

It feels like it has. I tried to pull at 700kph and recovery was steady and not to quick. It was quick by WW2 aircraft standards. Nevertheless I was not able to destroy my wings with one pull as the pilot lacked the strenght to do that at this particular speed.

 

It was very old discussion... P-51 has very low stick forces and the most dangerous was an effect of gradient reversal at aft CG balance. This effect together with outstanding maximum lift at high Mach numbers made strtuctural failure very possible and required careful pulling at high speed. Dora was reported relatively easy to handle at high IAS.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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It was very old discussion... P-51 has very low stick forces and the most dangerous was an effect of gradient reversal at aft CG balance. Dora was reported relatively easy to handle at high IAS.

 

So of the 3 WWII fighters we have now, the 109 would be effected the most by this feature? I was quite surprised by how heavy it made the stick feel, without having the real feel in my flight stick, I am pretty happy with it... makes me feel more responsible when putting my aircraft in a situation I shouldnt have.

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It was very old discussion... P-51 has very low stick forces and the most dangerous was an effect of gradient reversal at aft CG balance. Dora was reported relatively easy to handle at high IAS.

That is what I read in many reports and interveiws with pilots. Thx for comfirmation. :book::smartass:

 

I still remember our conversation about stick forces for P-51 in 2014:smilewink:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1970423&postcount=380

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The stick forces now are exactly that they were in real 109. Yes, and at 700 kph IAS you have to pull about 20 kgf for any centimeter of stick travel. I mean the real plane.

So, as I wrote some time ago, the cut force is implemented and you are out of precise controlling if the force is above 32 kgf and you are out of control if the force is greater than 70 kg.

 

 

what i still dont understand though is, why is it then that when close to the center, the virtual stick hardly moves in comparison to your home-stick...the farther you go away from center though, the more the virtual stick becomes "alive" and eventually will make more movement than your home-stick...as if there was a curvature setting now...that doesnt make much sense to me, as the further away from center, the more forces you have to apply as a pilot....if that is the "inaccurate" control you speak about, then i have to say, its probably exactly this effect which just feels unnatural...not so much the limitations themselves....its as we have now a forced curvature setting...

 

As it is still beta smile.gif and we have not find yet exact pedal forces for 109. Ok, if we do not find for the next patch we can use something like P-51 limitations.

 

please give us something quickly...the combination of having those stick forces on the stick, but lacking on the rudder feels just wrong...

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If you'd move the stick very slowly at constant airspeed, you would find that the response is nearly constant up to the cutting force.

 

This is hard to do though, as your airspeed will change by pulling the stick.

 

Maybe someone could write a little .lua output script (similar to what is done by Tacview for example) with the dynamic pressure (~airspeed), joystick position and simulated stick position. Then you'd have to fly the same dive over and over again and try to match a certain speed to different simulated stick positions (while moving the joystick very slowly).

 

You'd then come to the conclusion that the control curve slope is constant. Oooooor, you could just believe Yo-Yo and me :)

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Maybe someone could write a little .lua output script (similar to what is done by Tacview for example) with the dynamic pressure (~airspeed), joystick position and simulated stick position.

Or perhaps there could be some indicators added to the controls indicator. (preferably directly by ED?)

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