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For the future - Expected R24R/T performance


nighthawk2174

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So something I've been working on for the past few months is looking into the performance of the R-24R/T using CFD. I'm pretty much done now and these are my results. We'll see how well these line up with what eventually is released but I hope that this ultimately helps Razbam implement an accurate R-24R and R-24T series of missiles. This is currently in my missile mod should you wish to try it out.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7t321bvz9zdz1xf/R24%20CFD%20Study%20V1.pdf?dl=0

 

 

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Nice post! I'm surprised to read it had LOAL modes though...neither the Sparrow nor the AMRAAM (excep the D model perhaps?) do.

 

My guess is this for the -T variant. Allowing it to launch on an IRST locked target before the missiles seeker is in range

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Nice post! I'm surprised to read it had LOAL modes though...neither the Sparrow nor the AMRAAM (excep the D model perhaps?) do.

 

What are you talking about ?

All Fox 3 have LOAL, that's the point.

 

@nighthawk2174

I'm not sure I'm buying the R-24 kinetic advantage over AIM-7M with 6s burn time Vs 15s.

 

Do you some sources to compare your CFD model to ?

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What are you talking about ?

All Fox 3 have LOAL, that's the point.

 

@nighthawk2174

I'm not sure I'm buying the R-24 kinetic advantage over AIM-7M with 6s burn time Vs 15s.

 

Do you some sources to compare your CFD model to ?

 

 

Uh I guess it's a terminology thing. In my mind LOAL means the missile gets fired off before having any information whatsoever about the target, which it only receives later. Currently Fox 3s do need -some- amount of information on the target, so technically that's not really LOAL. Am I wrong?

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Uh I guess it's a terminology thing. In my mind LOAL means the missile gets fired off before having any information whatsoever about the target, which it only receives later. Currently Fox 3s do need -some- amount of information on the target, so technically that's not really LOAL. Am I wrong?

 

For me it isn't about data, but seeker lock.

Lock On After Launch.

 

Fox 3 are launched with vector to intercept target, update data link, but the seeker will lock late in BVR shot.

 

In the PDF LOAL is indicated for R-24R.

 

Used in LOBL, Fox 1 max launch range is limited by lock on range.

The SARH missile's seeker will lock later than fighter FCR (smaller antenna).

LOAL allows to improve firing range, especially with low RCS.

 

I have to say I knew about it on R-27R/ ER but not on R-24R...


Edited by jojo

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For me it isn't about data, but seeker lock.

Lock On After Launch.

 

Fox 3 are launched with vector to intercept target, update data link, but the seeker will lock late in BVR shot.

 

In the PDF LOAL is indicated for R-24R.

 

Used in LOBL, Fox 1 max launch range is limited by lock on range.

The SARH missile's seeker will lock later than fighter FCR (smaller antenna).

LOAL allows to improve firing range, especially with low RCS.

 

I have to say I knew about it on R-27R/ ER but not on R-24R...

 

It was indicated in the razbam discord that this was the case, now of course if it isn't i'll update the doc.

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What are you talking about ?

All Fox 3 have LOAL, that's the point.

 

@nighthawk2174

I'm not sure I'm buying the R-24 kinetic advantage over AIM-7M with 6s burn time Vs 15s.

 

Do you some sources to compare your CFD model to ?

 

For the AIM7? For the R24 I ran two validation tests that you can see in the doc.

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It was indicated in the razbam discord that this was the case, now of course if it isn't i'll update the doc.

 

I don't know what part of my message you are answering too.

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For the AIM7? For the R24 I ran two validation tests that you can see in the doc.

 

The problem is that DCS is a competitive environment. So even if what you did for R-24R is good, it needs to be done for all AA missiles.

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Well that's up to ED and what they do shouldn't have an impact on what a 3rd party dev does.

 

ED should be responsible for all missiles, ammunition, ballistics etc. And it is ED job to as well publicly confirm all data, so no one can say "ED has source to say so, who are you to say otherwise, what is your source?" as some these days do.

 

The third party job is anyways run all through ED, and ED to double check all data. But when ED own missiles are off, it begs to differ...

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So if r24,s are supposedly better than aim7m's purely because of lock on after launch, why were they replaced with r27,s ( the ones roughly regarded as a aim7m contemporary) which lack such a capability?

 

It seems perhaps this was one of those things that at the time sounded great on paper in the 70s but in practice didn,t live up to the hype, due to technological limitations at the time relative to current modern day missiles with loal capability


Edited by Kev2go

 

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So if r24,s are supposedly better than aim7m's purely because of lock on after launch, why were they replaced with r27,s ( the ones roughly regarded as a aim7m contemporary) which lack such a capability?

AIM-7's have this capability from the M up for sure. Also kinematics wise I think the 24 and the 27 are very similar. The biggest limitation of the 24 is the 45 second timer on the missile which the 27 bumps up to just under 60sec.

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So if r24,s are supposedly better than aim7m's purely because of lock on after launch, why were they replaced with r27,s ( the ones roughly regarded as a aim7m contemporary) which lack such a capability?

 

So why didn't Russia improve R-27 by other means than E-variant, when it was so terrible that even R-24 is almost as good? And even today it is their main missile, against these much more superior ones that would blow Sukhois and MiG's down from sky without any information?

 

 

Or maybe R-24 and R-27 are far more advanced than papers says, and more like some pilots say off-the-record.... And people here keeps denying all based some unknown ED sources... And economics of Russia (that yet kept developing all kind weapons, but not to replace those inferior and only weapons usable in BVR combat...).

 

And if that R-27 is so terrible... Why the India just purchased this year more of those missiles to their Su-30MKI, unlike that Indians does otherwise to buy best from all around and fit them to their use as needed? Like why not buy something like Meteor or similar and assimilate that to their aircrafts they have capability to do? India that is yet likely buying Israelis missile with modification to Sukhois to get them integrated, yet while avoiding AIM-120C-5 missiles and simultaneously whining how Russian missiles doesn't offer reach to counter those American ones....?

 

 

It is like a circular logic with these missiles public performance....

 

Russia keeps its inferior weapons that renders all its air force useless and very vulnerable to engagements, while others keep developing new weapons that should already be multiple times superior to Russian ones.... So Russia stupid and everyone else just after money?

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On the R-24 vs R-27 side, I think just overall dimensions is a likely issue, along with drag. Not to mention smaller/better seekers etc on the 27.

 

As for Indian defense politics, to describe them as corrupt is probably a gross understatement. Though I agree that they wouldn't necessarily buy total garbage, but then again they might not buy the best of the best for political reasons too. I actually find India in a fairly interesting position since they have flown both eastern and western A/C to include some fairly modern types. But there are always alot of politics in defense spending.

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AIM-7's have this capability from the M up for sure. Also kinematics wise I think the 24 and the 27 are very similar. The biggest limitation of the 24 is the 45 second timer on the missile which the 27 bumps up to just under 60sec.

 

ahh i didn't realize that


Edited by Kev2go

 

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So why didn't Russia improve R-27 by other means than E-variant, when it was so terrible that even R-24 is almost as good? And even today it is their main missile, against these much more superior ones that would blow Sukhois and MiG's down from sky without any information?

 

 

Or maybe R-24 and R-27 are far more advanced than papers says, and more like some pilots say off-the-record.... And people here keeps denying all based some unknown ED sources... And economics of Russia (that yet kept developing all kind weapons, but not to replace those inferior and only weapons usable in BVR combat...).

 

And if that R-27 is so terrible... Why the India just purchased this year more of those missiles to their Su-30MKI, unlike that Indians does otherwise to buy best from all around and fit them to their use as needed? Like why not buy something like Meteor or similar and assimilate that to their aircrafts they have capability to do? India that is yet likely buying Israelis missile with modification to Sukhois to get them integrated, yet while avoiding AIM-120C-5 missiles and simultaneously whining how Russian missiles doesn't offer reach to counter those American ones....?

 

 

It is like a circular logic with these missiles public performance....

 

Russia keeps its inferior weapons that renders all its air force useless and very vulnerable to engagements, while others keep developing new weapons that should already be multiple times superior to Russian ones.... So Russia stupid and everyone else just after money?

 

 

 

Oh that again

 

vVkoPPU.gif


Edited by Kev2go

 

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So why didn't Russia improve R-27 by other means than E-variant, when it was so terrible that even R-24 is almost as good? And even today it is their main missile, against these much more superior ones that would blow Sukhois and MiG's down from sky without any information?

 

 

Or maybe R-24 and R-27 are far more advanced than papers says, and more like some pilots say off-the-record.... And people here keeps denying all based some unknown ED sources... And economics of Russia (that yet kept developing all kind weapons, but not to replace those inferior and only weapons usable in BVR combat...).

 

And if that R-27 is so terrible... Why the India just purchased this year more of those missiles to their Su-30MKI, unlike that Indians does otherwise to buy best from all around and fit them to their use as needed? Like why not buy something like Meteor or similar and assimilate that to their aircrafts they have capability to do? India that is yet likely buying Israelis missile with modification to Sukhois to get them integrated, yet while avoiding AIM-120C-5 missiles and simultaneously whining how Russian missiles doesn't offer reach to counter those American ones....?

 

 

It is like a circular logic with these missiles public performance....

 

Russia keeps its inferior weapons that renders all its air force useless and very vulnerable to engagements, while others keep developing new weapons that should already be multiple times superior to Russian ones.... So Russia stupid and everyone else just after money?

 

I don't really see where you want to go but:

- India requested to fit Meteor on Su-30MKI but MBDA said no.

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/mail-today/story/iaf-s-meteor-missile-plans-likely-to-take-a-hit-1249650-2018-06-04

- India requested an early delivery of Meteor missiles to arrive on the delivery of the first 4 Rafale in India.

Indian Air Force: IAF may get ‘No Escape’ Meteor missiles in May https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/iaf-may-get-no-escape-meteor-missiles-in-may/articleshow/72376375.cms

So to me it looks like they are eager to get Meteor ASAP.

- India is developing Astra Fox 3 missile

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/watch-air-to-air-missile-astra-test-fired-from-sukhoi-su-30mki-2102454%3famp=1&akamai-rum=off

 

:music_whistling:


Edited by jojo

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