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Range on AGM-65E?


Alphamale

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Didn't see this in Wags' tutorial and there does not appear to be a "Shoot" cue, but I've been able to get kills from 16 NM. The missile will loft to about close to 15K from shot at 5K as per the practice mission, but beyond that, the missile detonates short of the target...Anyone know if there's a Shoot Cue other than the colored in boxed X cue?

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I know there was a problem with laser range.. if you fire at the target from 15miles and fly towards the the target and get under 8-10 miles you will hit the target, but if you fly away from the target the Mav will fly to the end of the laser beam and explode or swerve to follow the end of the laser beam.. I think the laser only works 8-10 miles out

There a vid on utube explaining it, but can’t find it at the moment

 

Red

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I know there was a problem with laser range.. if you fire at the target from 15miles and fly towards the the target and get under 8-10 miles you will hit the target, but if you fly away from the target the Mav will fly to the end of the laser beam and explode or swerve to follow the end of the laser beam.. I think the laser only works 8-10 miles out

There a vid on utube explaining it, but can’t find it at the moment

 

Red

 

Yeah, I'll test that, but why would you do that? Continue to follow in toward the target? I thought the idea was "Launch n' Leave"...Thanks for info

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That laser range problem is only for the laser operator. Not for the receiver. Laser beams are like blind canes with an LED at the end, about 8 some miles long, unless it has changed recently. As long as the beamer is within that range of the target (or gets to that range before the receiver hits the spot) they work fine.

 

With us not having a laser pod yet it is truely launch and leave.

 

Once we get a pod i hope the beam length is fixed so that we don't have to circle at 8 miles to keep the spot actually at the target, instead of in the air.

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That laser range problem is only for the laser operator. Not for the receiver. Laser beams are like blind canes with an LED at the end, about 8 some miles long, unless it has changed recently. As long as the beamer is within that range of the target (or gets to that range before the receiver hits the spot) they work fine.

 

With us not having a laser pod yet it is truely launch and leave.

 

Once we get a pod i hope the beam length is fixed so that we don't have to circle at 8 miles to keep the spot actually at the target, instead of in the air.

 

That would depend upon the number of additional remaining targets as well as defensive units' ranges in the area of the target. You may still have to loiter, but I understand what you're saying about painting it yourself


Edited by Alphamale
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I don’t think it explodes when it gets to the "end of the laser beam". I remember this happening with the E/O and IR mavs in the A-10, when you shoot them from a very long distance they explode before hitting the target, even if they have enough energy to reach it, it seems that the max range is around 15nm. I don’t know what seems to be the logic behind that tho.

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I don’t think it explodes when it gets to the "end of the laser beam". I remember this happening with the E/O and IR mavs in the A-10, when you shoot them from a very long distance they explode before hitting the target, even if they have enough energy to reach it, it seems that the max range is around 15nm. I don’t know what seems to be the logic behind that tho.

 

Looks to be the seeker detection range - if you WPDSG where the laser is, you can get the seeker to uncage and slave to the waypoint and look for the spot from any distance, with a bit of trial and error you'll find it pretty much always locks at 16-16.4nm.

 

There is a self-destruct timer on Mavericks IRL I think - set to go off whenever the battery runs out. There is though a bug with the TGP/TPOD in the Harrier/A-10C - the laser range is only 8nm or so, but if you're out of range the Maverick will still lock, only it locks the floating end of the laser wherever that is. So if the laser designator is orbiting 10nm away from the target, the Maverick will chase a floating point 2nm away from the target.

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Didn't see this in Wags' tutorial and there does not appear to be a "Shoot" cue, but I've been able to get kills from 16 NM. The missile will loft to about close to 15K from shot at 5K as per the practice mission, but beyond that, the missile detonates short of the target...Anyone know if there's a Shoot Cue other than the colored in boxed X cue?

 

I did some testing yesterday, to find out what's the reasonable distance to hit. This is what I came up with:

 

At 400 kts IAS, firing at stationary MBT:

 

  • To hit from the max laser range (~16nm) you need to be at 7000 feet.
  • If you get within 10nm from the target, you can be as low as you want.

 

A missile fired at 400kts / 10nm / 100 ft will hit the target.

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Is it even possible to illuminate a target more than ~8nm away? In clear daylight weather?

 

Yes, 8 nm (14 km) max range is a reasonable approximation for self designation in good conditions.

 

If the laser designator is closer, the laser spot can be detected from further away.

 

Conversely, if the illuminating laser is further away, the weapon needs to be launched closer.

 

IMHO Angle of incidence and meteorological visibility (14 km -> 4 km) are more important RL factors that reduce the effective range.

 

This chart is for the 'best case' but gives the general shape of all the curves and how angle of incidence effects detection.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=197371&stc=1&d=1541676239

 

Note: The AV-8 Tactical Manual Vol 1 (A1-AV8BB-TAC-000) has a detailed description of the AGM-65E's ranges - it''s 30°/20nm Visibility chart is close to the above green curve with a max acquisition range of 9.75 nm (18 km).

 

I'd say the DCS LMAV seeker over performs as it can acquire targets at 16 nm (30 km), while the real max acquisition range is around 12 nm (22 km).

701471729_LaserDesignatorLGBrangesfordifferentanglesofincidence.JPG.8ecbd66f18c9c95b75771d7e62565939.JPG


Edited by Ramsay
General chart matches AV-8B NATOP's pretty well

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Yes, 8 nm (14 km) max range is a reasonable approximation for self designation in good conditions.

 

If the laser designator is closer, the laser spot can be detected from further away.

 

Conversely, if the illuminating laser is further away, the weapon needs to be launched closer.

 

IMHO Angle of incidence and meteorological visibility (14 km -> 4 km) are more important RL factors that reduce the effective range.

 

This chart is for the 'best case' but gives the general shape of all the curves and how angle of incidence effects detection.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=197371&stc=1&d=1541676239

 

Note: The AV-8 Tactical Manual Vol 1 (A1-AV8BB-TAC-000) has a detailed description of the AGM-65E's ranges - it''s 30°/20nm Visibility chart is close to the above green curve with a max acquisition range of 9.75 nm (18 km).

 

I'd say the DCS LMAV seeker over performs as it can acquire targets at 16 nm (30 km), while the real max acquisition range is around 12 nm (22 km).

 

Love charts, thanks

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This video shows the problem clearly. Not done by me.

Dated 31 May 2018. Not fixed.

 

 

 

Hmm, interesting video...so you think the mavs for the F18 are/will behave the same way? I shot one at just under 17nm and did a half loop egress to put me at 180 deg to tgt and it still flew a straight line...one time missing about 25 meters short and the other hitting...so I son't think it has the same problem as the AV8B...thanks for the video

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Hmm, interesting video...so you think the mavs for the F18 are/will behave the same way? I shot one at just under 17nm and did a half loop egress to put me at 180 deg to tgt and it still flew a straight line...one time missing about 25 meters short and the other hitting...so I son't think it has the same problem as the AV8B...thanks for the video

 

The movement shown in the video is related to the aircraft firing the laser. Not the launching aircraft. Since the Hornet is not lasing the target itself at the moment it doesn’t matter what you do with the aircraft after launch. In my video I launch a Maverick from a Harrier with a TPOD which is also lasing the target. Hence the aircrafts manoeuvres have an effect on the Maverick, at least when the range to target is beyond 8nm.

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The movement shown in the video is related to the aircraft firing the laser. Not the launching aircraft. Since the Hornet is not lasing the target itself at the moment it doesn’t matter what you do with the aircraft after launch. In my video I launch a Maverick from a Harrier with a TPOD which is also lasing the target. Hence the aircrafts manoeuvres have an effect on the Maverick, at least when the range to target is beyond 8nm.

 

Two lasing sources? At the same time? Yours and a buddy?


Edited by Alphamale
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And you're saying that the MAV seeker guides the missle to a point in space that is 10nm from your TPOD and that's why it veers off as you turn away from the point of launch?

 

8nm, but yes. It aims at a floating point 8nm down the laser 'line' even though the ground is 10nm away (for example). And as the aircraft moves, the maverick chases the floating point rather than aiming at the point on the ground you're trying to lase.

 

It's worth pointing out that a LGB would do the same thing, and the A10s TGP has the same issue. It's a problem with the way ED have tried to implement a max range for the TPODs - instead of making the laser pointer not appear on the target if the target is more than 8nm away from the laser source, they've fixed it at a maximum 8nm range so it floats.


Edited by backspace340
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In the video there is just one source - the TPOD on the harrier. The Hornet won't have the same issue until it gets the ATFLIR (unless they fix it before then).

 

No, he first says that the "movement shown in the video is related to the aircraft firing the laser. Not the launching aircraft." Suggesting a buddy lase

 

But then he says, " In my video I launch a Maverick from a Harrier with a TPOD which is also lasing the target." Suggesting that HIS plane is ALSO lasing.

 

So I need to have that cleared up

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No, he first says that the "movement shown in the video is related to the aircraft firing the laser. Not the launching aircraft." Suggesting a buddy lase

 

But then he says, " In my video I launch a Maverick from a Harrier with a TPOD which is also lasing the target." Suggesting that HIS plane is ALSO lasing.

 

So I need to have that cleared up

 

Yes you're misunderstanding - the problem does not depend on the launching aircraft. If a Harrier was doing a buddy laze for you at a 10nm target and you fired a laser Mav at it, you would see the same bug. If you launch at 16nm at a target being lazed by a jtac that's 2nm away from the target, you won't see it. So the launching aircraft doesn't matter (which is what he's trying to explain with the statement you think suggests buddy lazing) - the source of the problem is the laser source and how far away it is from the target. It doesn't matter if you're buddy lazing or self lazing, if the designator is more than 8nm away you'll have this issue.

 

In the video he is both firing the laser and launching the maverick - and there's just that one laser.


Edited by backspace340
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Overlapping designator illumination might cause problems. The coding is flashed and two lasers, even of the same flash code, aren't going to be perfectly synchronous. It might cause problems for a real sensor to understand the flash code in this case. It's probably not an issue in sim.

 

Laser range is a round trip range assuming the laser source is your airplane and the missile is still mounted to it. Gaussian laser beams reduce in intensity by inverse square law. Since round trip path is double distance to target reflector the intensity is proportional to D^-4 power. Double the distance to target and intensity is 1/16th as much. Given that target isn't a perfect reflecting mirror there is some multiplication by reflection coefficient and some exponential decay of signal due to atmospheric attenuation.

 

Seems like laser target is a logical laserTarget type object at the end of a vector. Normally the vector intersects the ground and the object is placed at the intersection. But if vector doesn't intersect ground by 8nm (or whatever) it's placing the object at 8nm along the vector which is in mid air. Thus you get a missile tracking a mid-air laser reflection and weird ensues.

 

Instead it's probably better to up the laser vector intersect length much beyond 8nm and associate an intensity value with that laser object. Then if it's 14nm away it won't be intense enough for the seeker to see but it will be visible to someone else much closer.

 

And if the laser vector never intersects terrain/vehicle simply never create a laser object at all. Maybe this newish limited rendering bubble issue is acting as an intersection surface?

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Overlapping designator illumination might cause problems. The coding is flashed and two lasers, even of the same flash code, aren't going to be perfectly synchronous. It might cause problems for a real sensor to understand the flash code in this case. It's probably not an issue in sim.

 

Laser range is a round trip range assuming the laser source is your airplane and the missile is still mounted to it. Gaussian laser beams reduce in intensity by inverse square law. Since round trip path is double distance to target reflector the intensity is proportional to D^-4 power. Double the distance to target and intensity is 1/16th as much. Given that target isn't a perfect reflecting mirror there is some multiplication by reflection coefficient and some exponential decay of signal due to atmospheric attenuation.

 

Seems like laser target is a logical laserTarget type object at the end of a vector. Normally the vector intersects the ground and the object is placed at the intersection. But if vector doesn't intersect ground by 8nm (or whatever) it's placing the object at 8nm along the vector which is in mid air. Thus you get a missile tracking a mid-air laser reflection and weird ensues.

 

Instead it's probably better to up the laser vector intersect length much beyond 8nm and associate an intensity value with that laser object. Then if it's 14nm away it won't be intense enough for the seeker to see but it will be visible to someone else much closer.

 

And if the laser vector never intersects terrain/vehicle simply never create a laser object at all. Maybe this newish limited rendering bubble issue is acting as an intersection surface?

 

Thank God, I just smoked a fatty....it's all making sense now..:huh:..

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