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The HORRIBLE HORRIBLE Shkval in 2.5


3WA

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What happened to the Shkval? It seems to be TOTALLY BORKED against air targets now. Even aircraft as slow as helicopters, which should be easy to lockup against the neutral sky.

 

 

It was bad enough in 1.x, but now it seems HORRIBLE. I have a hard time locking up aircraft 1nm away. Beyond about 2nm, it seems to be impossible.

 

 

These are slow moving AH-64's I'm trying to lock up. The STINKING SHKVAL just seems to refuse to do it! Is it REALLY that bad in RL?

 

 

I would NEVER fly this helicopter in Real Combat. It's a DEATH TRAP, because you can't use any weapons. THEY ARE ALL LINKED TO THE WORTHLESS SHKVAL!

 

 

PLEASE FIX THIS ED! THE SHARK HAS BECOME UNPLAYABLE WHEN THERE ARE AIR THREATS AROUND.

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Hmm, switched the units in game from Imperial to Metric, and now it seems to lock a little better. Any of you guys having trouble with the Shkval, maybe try that. It does seem a little better now.

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Anyone having trouble locking up any type of ground target at all?

 

 

I can't get the shkval to lock anything after today's update. I'd like someone else to confirm.

 

Also, some of my bindings have changed mysteriously. Radio menu comms and axes.


Edited by fargo007

 

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Also, some of my bindings have changed mysteriously. Radio menu comms and axes.

Can't say anything about the shkval, but they did add a couple of new controller presets for all ED modules, including this one. In 'Mods\aircrafts\[module]\input\[mode]\joystick' you can find a 'default.lua' and several preset files for common controllers. See if one of the new ones (***.diff.lua) correspond to your setup.

 

They did put up a poll a while ago about what controllers we use, with the purpose to add more presets for the most common ones.

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Anyone having trouble locking up any type of ground target at all?

 

 

I can't get the shkval to lock anything after today's update. I'd like someone else to confirm.

 

Also, some of my bindings have changed mysteriously. Radio menu comms and axes.

 

can confirm. My Shkval wouldn't lock on another Chopper at 2km and my bindings were also majorly borked after the update.

 

The state of the Werewolf get's worse with every update.

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I've also noticed a catch-22. If the sun is shining the shkval locks most targets, but the glare on the screen is so bad that I can't make out anything if the sun is even slightly in my back (even after fiddling with brigthness and contrast). If there is a heavy cloud cover, I can easily make out targets on the screen, but the shkval won't lock anything moving.

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Yeah, there's some real glare now, but it looks realistic. Especially on these old green screens.

 

 

But yeah, more and more, with every update, problems with the cockpit are starting to add up. The other day, I noticed I couldn't pull up my comms screen with \ anymore. Guess I'll have to go dig on what happened to that now.

 

 

One thing that did seem to help slightly with the shkval is to change measurements in Settings to Metric. I started to have better lockup potential after doing that. Still hard to lock up even a heli though. You USED to be able to lock up a slow moving jet, especially one coming almost straight at you, but that seems impossible now.

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Yeah, there's some real glare now, but it looks realistic. Especially on these old green screens.

 

 

But yeah, more and more, with every update, problems with the cockpit are starting to add up. The other day, I noticed I couldn't pull up my comms screen with \ anymore. Guess I'll have to go dig on what happened to that now.

 

 

One thing that did seem to help slightly with the shkval is to change measurements in Settings to Metric. I started to have better lockup potential after doing that. Still hard to lock up even a heli though. You USED to be able to lock up a slow moving jet, especially one coming almost straight at you, but that seems impossible now.

 

Screen glare being realistic is all nice and well, but the screen glares in situations where the sun should be blocked by the airframe. It's like a 270° arc where the shkval in decypherable in varying degrees. Unfortunatley switching to metric didn't help with locking targets. But after some testing I found out that the Werewolf still works in the stable version of DCS. I could lock a AH-1W from 8km away.

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  • 2 years later...

Seems to randomly slew around now. Horrible. Helo also likes to randomly yaw, too, or even VRS for no damn reason even when you have quite a bit of lateral motion that it shouldn't be possible... and/or you're over a bunch of trees.

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Bit of an old thread, but the random slewing, are you maybe pressing Uncage Shkval twice with the Helmet mounted sight off? It has a built-in scan mode where if you uncage (not lock) it twice, it starts scanning left-to-right, based on whether you slewed left or right last. That mode is pretty useless. It also doesn't have internial/ground stabilising unless you lock with the laser on, so it will drift, especially I think if you have sideslip.

 

Random yaw could be it's returning to your last trimmed heading (ie. the heading you set it to try and hold and return to - heading hold autopilot is by default always on), it tends to weathervane by turning into wind - stronger the wind the more it does so. There's also a few occasions it'll yaw if you do a rapid break (just pitch up and keeping it from rising) or if you hover and heading hold is off it has some right yaw in it specifically.

 

VRS can develop from anything typically under 50kph, if your descent is getting to 5m/s or more. The Mi-8 starts dropping from 3m/s onwards.

 

Was it any of these symptoms or were you experiencing something else?

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No, the Shkval can indeed start drifting on its own.

I've mostly encountered it hovering behind tree lines where the Shkval will get stuck on a tree 5 meters in front, even if said tree is barely within LOS. Strangely this doesn't happen everywhere and doesn't always require trees in the way.

My guess is, the Shkval uses an elevation database which has issues in some areas, leading to wrong LOS calculations. This might also explain why DL targets are sometimes stored with completely wrong altitude information.

 

We reported this already, but ED has other priorities at the moment. No point in discussing bugs if they are just getting buried and never even acknowledged (thanks ED!)

 

I'm not even going to address the flight issues in this thread. It's about the Shkval needing an update, not basics of helicopter operation.

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No, the Shkval can indeed start drifting on its own.

We reported this already, but ED has other priorities at the moment. No point in discussing bugs if they are just getting buried and never even acknowledged (thanks ED!)

 

The automatic lateral slewing Volk is referring to helps the gunner acquire moving vehicles but yes it moves sometimes when you don't want it to.

The vertical movement you are referring to is a representation of the real system I believe and not a DCS bug. Sometimes you will get a bad lase. And sometimes the reticle will move closer/lower to the new range. And sometimes, like you say, the sytem will accidentally lase a very close object and lock on to it. Even more weird, the system will sometimes lose stabilization and the shkval will completely drop down to range zero and you will get a big X on the screen.

 

I stopped using automatic mode. Try using manual. I almost never get a bad lase now. And I never get the big X. When my missile impacts I turn the laser off and slew to a new target. Then I lase on, lock and fire again. When I use manual mode and give the laser short rests the shkval behaves almost flawlessly. I think the shkval behaves strange in automatic mode due to laser overheating.

 

The Ka50 is not broken. It is one of the best modules in DCS. I flew a big Fast Mission last night and I scored 10 targets and my wingmen 7 each. I was fighting M1s so some of my targets required multiple missiles. The only thing unrealistic about the mission was I knew the enemy was not scrambling fighters to hunt me, so I loitered lazily over the battlefield.

 

 

 

 

HORNET/VIPER/HARRIER/SABRE/FISHBED/FROGFOOT/HOKUM/HIND/JUG/ISHAK

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No, sometimes DL targets will be saved with the wrong altitude.

Last time this happened I switched position by several KM just to verify this was an issue. The direction was spot on, but the elevation was way off. I've also seen this with DL points received from an AI wingman.

This only seems to happen in certain areas, not everywhere. This is why I suspect it has something to do with the Shkval relying on a elevation database which is broken in some way (talking DCS code here, not IRL)

 

No track files, because I disabled recording. I mostly play online and since MP tracks are unreliable I didn't see the point in wasting the system resources. This also means I have no memory of where the problem occurred, but it's not like we'd get a fix before BS3 anyways.

 

Switching to manual mode has become part of my pre-flight checklist. It doesn't change anything in regards to tracking terrain / a target.

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The basics of helo flight stuff I was just replying to Reticuli.

But on the Shkval, I know that when you lase (lock with the laser), and once in a while if you're slewing around wildly with a range already (when it's only fuzzy-updating) it will fire the laser, then the laser timer appears on the HUD. It seems to be lasing for this whole 3-8 seconds time (3 usually if terrain, 8-ish seconds if locking an object). If during this time something obstructs the laser, like descending beneath tree-top level or masking behind a hill, it will update the ranging with that instead. So that comes in more often if you were designating targets before a coordinated launch, quickly pop down to avoid incoming fire or you're planning trick shot things from outside line of sight.

To avoid that just wait till the lasing finishes, or press laser reset before the laser measures the wrong thing.

I wouldn't put it past the trees to have a 'hitbox' that's different from the billboard planes that are rendered though. Might even be that they simulated the laser firing from slightly offboard (ie. not from the literal actual centre of the Shkval camera but maybe 30cm off).

 

If one didn't laser-lock terrain, then the Shkval doesn't have inertial guidance to prevent it slipping across the terrain or moving at a different speed from the target. Also heavy bank or yaw (even while still in the Shkval line of sight) will cause it to lose it's tracking. If it breaks lock off a moving target it'll run on memory mode and guess the target position so it'll keep drifting in that direction.

 

For re-acquiring the saved target, did you select the datalink target type and then press DL Ingress as well (otherwise it would just bore-sight uncage, or uncage whereever your Helmet sight is pointed if that's out)?. Also if you have a Target Point selected on the PVI-800 it aims there instead of DL if I recall.

 

I have also found that especially if you slew & lase while the laser is already firing, the range can corrupt, often ending up with a fraction of the actual distance. I have no idea whether that's an IRL feature or a bug. It only shows the wrong ranging once the laser stops firing the second time around.

 

Not sure if it was maybe one of the above issues/cases you experienced. But all that said, I have also found the DL Ingress datalink targets to not always be accurate. Sometimes it's more accurate than other times. May be there's some bug (or IRL drift) if one changes altitude a bit from the altitude you saved it at (ie angle of the Shkval/Laser thing) that it goes out by a lot.

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  • 1 month later...

It is quite nice that you guys are all helping to describe the faulty KA-50 behaviour in detail.

 

As a reaction to your descriptions and the time you have invested, I would have expected a short ED comment in advance explicitly confirming that they will offer solutions later on (regardless of the announced new features).

 

Such statement would have been strategically fine, it would not have browbeaten them into appointing a time, either. On the other hand they told us to give due notice on news, what is less sophisticated, because ED leaves the impression, at least on my side, they will wait out the all-time problems. Another thought that has come to my mind is that ED might have realised that the KA-50 program code is unstructured to such an extent they will have to reprogram it in many areas and in a time-consuming way ... ?

 

Nevertheless, neither I am entitled to speculate nor I am interested in, but I keep my fingers crossed for above-mentioned confirmation*  🤞

 

 

* i.e. : We confirm project "See KA-50 and die !" :megalol:

 

 

 

 


Edited by Fastbreak
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Maybe they just have no clue what the weird behavior is and if can be fixed or not.

 

The way it works is by tracing 3D collision and that's why it gets stuck against trees, leaves and seemingly invisible stuff like wires - that now have collision in 2.5.x, which they didn't have up to 1.5.

 

Apparently it'll also "collide" with the aircraft itself (or some invisible geometry) sometimes, bringing the range to 0.0 and causing unexpected slewing and yawing when Turn to Target is also on. 

 

This behavior was a lot worse in early 2.5 (before the new Ka50 cockpit) and I haven't seen it happening much as of 2.5.6, but the fact that it's much harder to lock now is true, specially for aircraft.

It used to lock a lot easier to airborne targets against a clear sky, with a proper slew gate size, but now is very hard to acquire a lock on aircraft farther than 4 km, even a slow flying chopper.

 

I think the proper fix would to make it properly contrast-based, or to at least simulate it better. Maybe if they can use whatever the new technology is for contrast-based ground radars.

But seems we'll have to wait.

 

Edit: Further illustrating the issue:

image.png

 


Edited by Sh4rk
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Hello Sh4rk,

 

I have experienced the same effects you describe and illustrate (with your also aesthetically pleasing art design :yes:).

 

Just like you, I also hope for a new contrast-based Shkval system. In all fairness, I have to admit that I expect them to get it started, because it would be the next logical step in Ka-50 evolution.  According to the principle: There is no such thing as impossible. 

 

Bye for now

Fastbreak

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Well, given the prior behavior patterns of ED I extrapolate the following, likely course of action from ED regarding the ka-50:

 

- Hype for update and features with some preliminary 3d modeling work (completed)

- open visual studio (completed)

- realize it's an unsalvageable mess (completed)

- No further updates/communication (completed)

- End of 2020: Anounce that Ka-50-III has been postponed in favor of Mi-24 and Ah-64 and that development will continue after they have been released/progressed (promised release date: soon(tm), actual release date: late(tm)) (completed)

- No updates/communication (still) (completed)

- no acknowledgement of pressing issues with the current system (completed)

- Slap on the promised new systems without fixing or adding (in particular a new shkval logic) anything else

- Break more stuff with every update

- Don't acknowledge or fix any bugs, old or new

- Get new priority modules

- Postpone Ka-50 in favor of new priorities

- never talk about it again (completed)

 

Really it's a shame. I do wish they had better communication. I understand that programming is hard work. I do it myself. I understand that working with legacy code is scary, hard and at some point you just want to throw it all away and start over.

But just tell us: "Our cobbled together helicopter module from 20 years ago is broken and doesn't include any comments and we can't fix it. After trying to make it work with dcs updates it became spaghetti code and changing anything without breaking everything doesn't work anymore. Sorry. We'll rewrite it using modern design patterns and integrate modules we have developed for other, more recent aircraft for faster development times in the future. We apologize but it's going to take at least 2 years. PS: We're hiring."

What's so hard about this? Are they too prideful to make a statement like that? Just admit to your mistakes.


Edited by FalcoGer
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Hello FalcoGer,

 

Ommmmh!  Everything is going to be alright! 🙏

But yes, I sense their engagement exactly the same every now and then.

 

 

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On 1/6/2021 at 11:11 AM, FalcoGer said:

Well, given the prior behavior patterns of ED I extrapolate the following, likely course of action from ED regarding the ka-50:

 

- Hype for update and features with some preliminary 3d modeling work (completed)

- open visual studio (completed)

- realize it's an unsalvageable mess (completed)

- No further updates/communication (completed)

- End of 2020: Anounce that Ka-50-III has been postponed in favor of Mi-24 and Ah-64 and that development will continue after they have been released/progressed (promised release date: soon(tm), actual release date: late(tm)) (completed)

- No updates/communication (still) (completed)

- no acknowledgement of pressing issues with the current system (completed)

- Slap on the promised new systems without fixing or adding (in particular a new shkval logic) anything else

- Break more stuff with every update

- Don't acknowledge or fix any bugs, old or new

- Get new priority modules

- Postpone Ka-50 in favor of new priorities

- never talk about it again (completed)

 

Really it's a shame. I do wish they had better communication. I understand that programming is hard work. I do it myself. I understand that working with legacy code is scary, hard and at some point you just want to throw it all away and start over.

But just tell us: "Our cobbled together helicopter module from 20 years ago is broken and doesn't include any comments and we can't fix it. After trying to make it work with dcs updates it became spaghetti code and changing anything without breaking everything doesn't work anymore. Sorry. We'll rewrite it using modern design patterns and integrate modules we have developed for other, more recent aircraft for faster development times in the future. We apologize but it's going to take at least 2 years. PS: We're hiring."

What's so hard about this? Are they too prideful to make a statement like that? Just admit to your mistakes.

 

 

You forgot...

 

- Keep asking for track files

 

Before I committed to Ka-50 few months ago, I asked if this module is as complete as A10C with no bugs and training.  Most of the replies except one said yes.  I should've listened to the one.  I would never recommend this to anyone looking to buy in current state.


Edited by Taz1004
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From official news, 08 January 2021, not more than a passing mention related to KA-50.

 

"Note: Due to new Russian Federation laws pertaining to the gathering of information of Russian military equipment, we have had to reconsider our plans to add new systems to the Ka-50. We continue to update the cockpit, as well as a highly detailed updated external model."

 

Ignoring their statement of Russian Federation laws, I was I was totally taken aback by fact that they have not given any more information on KA-50 updates and accordingly bug-fixing either, especially after all the corresponding user contributions.

 

In a nutshell, PATHETIC!

 

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5 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Ignoring their statement of Russian Federation laws, I was I was totally taken aback by fact that they have not given any more information on KA-50 updates

It's most likely they put work into gathering the information, did some work on it like those December 2019 post on the external model, then got wind of the new law and then between legal team and/or military liasons they've been trying to figure a way around it, or how to still include the bulk of it. If it's not just a clear-cut case of reading a multi-page document with a clear conclusion, or someone comes up with an idea, you typically need to be negotiation/lobbying to someone in the powers that be to get it cleared, which likely would take time. Would be great if they said there was an unexpected delay, check back in X months, but may be that it is with some external government body to come back to them which ED has no way to rush.

Possibly some of the bug-fixing was on hold if it relates to code that would change should they get the greenlight on BS3, but definitely not all bugs are related, e.g. the wingman AI and campaigns.

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Good evening Volk.

 

I have expressed my displeasure and disappointment over missing bug-fixing confirmation and KA-50 disinformation. To not become a crosspatch, I decided to have done with this nuisance, but I have learned my lesson (...). I hope other KA-50 aficionados may give their own thoughts to ED's approach and may consistently react to it, too (...).

 

Below the line ED has announced great highlights for 2021 - they're going to talk the talk, they've got to walk the walk!

 

See u slightly below top tree level

Fastbreak 😉

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Cockpit: self-construction <> Controls: Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog (extension for cyclic & collective control) <> Thrustmaster Rudder Control System <> Sound: Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium <> Logitech Z-560 THX Sound System

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