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Should pilots be punished for using the G-Limiter override leaver ?


Shadow KT

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I haven't dug in into the F/A-18 a lot yet, but I do see a lot of video where people just pull the G Override and pull Gs with bombs on the wings like it is nothing.

 

The FCS calculated the G Limiter based on loading, correct ?

 

I am asking here, just so I know what to expect. Not complaining or anything.

 

Should the bombs get torn off the wings if you pull such maneuvers ? or shouldn't there be structural damage.

 

I know that an air frame should be capable of sustaining up to 3 second above the maximum rated G without breaking apart (to another G rating), but that should still give structural damage.

 

Asking, because it just seems a bit unfair of these hornet pilots who use this technik in dogfighting while still having their whole payload

 

Is this something we can expect in the future ?

 

Thanks in advance. Again, this is not bashing or crying or reporting anything, just a question about expectations (kinda sad that I have to specifically specify this)


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'Shadow'

 

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The M2000 loses its payload easily when you disable the 6G limiter and pull more than that. I would expect the Hornet to have a similar 'feature' but not sure if that is the case. Those pins holding the bombs are only SO strong, afterall.

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The F18 is limited to 7.5G when lightly loaded to lengthen airframe lifespan. Less G, less long term stress on a cost effective fighter.

 

Could you rip heavy stores off at 9G? Sure. This just isn't modeled yet.

 

That being said the airframe is rated for over 9G constant so you aren't going to damage the plane from using the switch. If you are over maneuvering speed the FBW will limit the G you can pull. I am sure you can damage hard points but you aren't going to tear the wings off. The override switch at this point just seems to put the FBW in a high G limit mode its still not giving you unlimited pitch control that I can tell. I haven messed with it that much though.

 

In real life when a pilot brings plane back and the override switch has been hit the ground crew will tear into the plane to check for cracks and stress damage etc. Don't forget these planes take tons of abuse over and over hard landings and high G. Eventually something can crack or distort on planes with high hours. The limit is there so the plane lasts longer over time not because it cant deal with high G. Lifespan in Navy use is somewhere around 6000 hours with normal wear and tear. Some planes are lasting even longer. If you are living on that switch its going to be much less. Number of carrier traps etc reduce lifespan aswell.

 

The other thing thats missing is a high G seat in the Hornet. Part of the reason the seat is reclined so much in the F16 is to help the pilot sustain more G. In the Hornet its much more vertical which makes pulling constant high G much harder on the pilot.

 

Once the damage modeling is there ya people that abuse the switch are going to possibly damage the airplane in the fight.

 

Plane is EA I have pulled over 25G and not torn or broke anything. Damage modeling for over G seems to be missing.

 

That being said if your smart in a fight and hang around corner speed the F18 does well in a turn fight without even messing with the switch. If you need the switch you have probably done something very wrong and its last ditch to either evade or get your nose on a bandit. Either case the pilot surviving is more important then any plane damage that may occur.


Edited by HawkDCS

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The F18 is limited to 7.5G when lightly loaded to lengthen airframe lifespan. Less G, less long term stress on a cost effective fighter.

 

Could you rip heavy stores off at 9G? Sure. This just isn't modeled yet.

 

That being said the airframe is rated for over 9G constant so you aren't going to damage the plane from using the switch. If you are over maneuvering speed the FBW will limit the G you can pull. I am sure you can damage hard points but you aren't going to tear the wings off. The override switch at this point just seems to put the FBW in a high G limit mode its still not giving you unlimited pitch control that I can tell. I haven messed with it that much though.

 

In real life when a pilot brings plane back and the override switch has been hit the ground crew will tear into the plane to check for cracks and stress damage etc. Don't forget these planes take tons of abuse over and over hard landings and high G. Eventually something can crack or distort on planes with high hours. The limit is there so the plane lasts longer over time not because it cant deal with high G. Lifespan in Navy use is somewhere around 6000 hours with normal wear and tear. Some planes are lasting even longer. If you are living on that switch its going to be much less. Number of carrier traps etc reduce lifespan aswell.

 

The other thing thats missing is a high G seat in the Hornet. Part of the reason the seat is reclined so much in the F16 is to help the pilot sustain more G. In the Hornet its much more vertical which makes pulling constant high G much harder on the pilot.

 

Once the damage modeling is there ya people that abuse the switch are going to possibly damage the airplane in the fight.

 

Plane is EA I have pulled over 25G and not torn or broke anything. Damage modeling for over G seems to be missing.

 

That being said if your smart in a fight and hang around corner speed the F18 does well in a turn fight without even messing with the switch. If you need the switch you have probably done something very wrong and its last ditch to either evade or get your nose on a bandit. Either case the pilot surviving is more important then any plane damage that may occur.

 

I think the op it's more about loosing the payload then damaging the plane

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It is both

 

Yeah plane might be rated for 9+ Gs, but it is one thing doing 9Gs on a clean plane and doing 9Gs on a fully loaded aircraft which weights a lot more

 

It really shouldn't be able to.

 

The G-limit of 7.5 is for a very lightly loaded aircraft and the FCS automatically lowers it depending on weight - at a gross weight of over 44000 lbs(corresponding to your "fully loaded") it is fixed at 5.5.

 

The G-limit override provides some 33% extra - i.e. as a procentage increase over what is otherwise available, so while it may allow you to pull up to 10 Gs with a practically clean aircraft, you are not going to get more than about 7 with a heavy one.

JJ

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I don’t know this to be happening, but I think at some point, there will be if there is not already a standard that people just hold the overide switch anytime they get in a BFM situation unless there is something done to penalize folks for doing it...too much incentive for them not to due to the performance increase.

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I don't understand the problem here...

 

 

In sim or IRL if I'm in a combat situation I'm pulling the lever. Ground crew, rules, policy and US Economy be damned :).

 

 

 

It's me or that guy going home? It's me. There's zero chance of me or likely any real world combat pilot getting into combat and not configuring the aircraft to give them absolutely everything it can give until the enemy is wrecked.

 

 

I pre-configure the jettison system so that if I get jumped I just hit the jettison button immediately and then yank the G-Lim switch. If there's ordinance inbound my flight path... I'm outbound its flight path ASAP... No matter what switch I have to pull.

 

 

 

Now if you're just talking about a hypothetical situation where you go on a CAP, see no enemy but decide to do some high G maneuvers on your way home just for the hell of it... Yeah OK... Maybe in a mission points system or something? Maybe a disciplinary action section of the logbook?

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Even then it's so irrelevant that if you don't cause damage there's no point unless you have aircraft life tracking and/or some kind post-mission 'dialogue' for flair.

 

 

 

Now if you're just talking about a hypothetical situation where you go on a CAP, see no enemy but decide to do some high G maneuvers on your way home just for the hell of it... Yeah OK... Maybe in a mission points system or something? Maybe a disciplinary action section of the logbook?

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The other thing thats missing is a high G seat in the Hornet. Part of the reason the seat is reclined so much in the F16 is to help the pilot sustain more G. In the Hornet its much more vertical which makes pulling constant high G much harder on the pilot.

 

No, the seat isn’t a a reason to limit the fighter to less than 9G.

It’s more likely to limit the fighter weight with still a 6000 hours lifetime.

A plane designed to take 9G daily would have been heavier, which is a problem for Navy aircraft, because with the same wings, heavier means faster in the groove.

 

Mirage 2000, Typhoon, F-15, Gripen F-22 or F-35A have seats roughly the same angle as Hornet and are 9G rated.

 

On the F-16 is was first a way to reduce the frontal section, because they put the cockpit above air intake. The increased G tolerance is a nice side effect.

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It is both

 

Yeah plane might be rated for 9+ Gs, but it is one thing doing 9Gs on a clean plane and doing 9Gs on a fully loaded aircraft which weights a lot more

 

But remember...all you gain is 33%...

 

The airframe is "Rated" for 9 G its actual failure point G is well beyond that. ( Not sure what THAT number is)

 

You're not going to do 9 gs with a fully loaded aircraft..you only get 7.5. Using the override only takes you to 9.9G. (7.5 + 33%) "Over the limit"? Sure. HOWEVER...well within the structural limits.

 

Compare that to an aircraft that's permitted 9.0G. Using override allows you to pull 11.9g. (9.0 + 33%) Again, over G...but within the limits of the aircraft.

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It's me or that guy going home? It's me. There's zero chance of me or likely any real world combat pilot getting into combat and not configuring the aircraft to give them absolutely everything it can give until the enemy is wrecked.

 

That is so. When the situation calls, you do all that you must to survive. You even lose all the speed if it makes you to survive. As there ain't points to be given "Oh, I had the speed but I am dead now because I didn't use it!".

 

Losing a plane or losing ordinance? I try to save the plane...

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But remember...all you gain is 33%...

 

The airframe is "Rated" for 9 G its actual failure point G is well beyond that. ( Not sure what THAT number is)

 

You're not going to do 9 gs with a fully loaded aircraft..you only get 7.5. Using the override only takes you to 9.9G. (7.5 + 33%) "Over the limit"? Sure. HOWEVER...well within the structural limits.

 

Compare that to an aircraft that's permitted 9.0G. Using override allows you to pull 11.9g. (9.0 + 33%) Again, over G...but within the limits of the aircraft.

 

Yeah, it is true that you can pull more than 9Gs on a 9G rated aircraft. In fact, you should be able to sustain 1,5 times the rated G for at least 3 seconds without the plane getting destroyed.

 

That doesn't mean there won't be structural damage especially when you pull with bombs on the wings.

 

I would guess that your ordinance getting ripped off their pylons is not a very pleasent thing.

 

At the time being this feature is quite abused by the more experienced pilots as there is no punishment for using it and this isn't how dogfight go in real life I would assume, or there would be a lot more scrapped jets

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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It's worth pointing out that the aircraft is in early access at the moment. This used to be a problem with other aircraft as well (the Su-27 comes to mind) before various fixes were implemented, and I'd expect the same to happen here.

 

It's probably also worth pointing out that a lot of the G-limitations that are by the book right now are in the context of peacetime (or various low-level proxy wars) and a desired 20-30 year service life for the aircraft. Look at the contrast between USAF F-16s and the USN's F-16N aggressors, the latter have had a much shorter service life specifically because of how they were used. On the other hand, the airframe stress of a 9-G turn is much less than that of the stress of shrapnel from an R-73.

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Well... that being true about the Su-27..as well as the A-10C which can also break off its wings...

 

Yet, the F-15 can pull 20Gs with 3 bags of fuel and nothing happens soooo..... You know....

 

Again, this is not a complain or anything, just asking questions, discussing what expectations should we have and should there be a penalty

'Shadow'

 

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Exactly, nothing happens... Is not relevant to combat.

 

But if we're discussing FMs and DMs, then yes, it should a) never reach 20gs one way or another and b) 3 full bags at 9g should cause it to disintegrate.

 

And when and if that is implemented, it will still comfortably out-g any flanker.

 

The aircraft construction, shake and mass is important here. The Hornet is light and the FBW won't let you pull hard enough to break the wings anyway, at least AFAIK.

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yeah, it is not relevant to combat, because it doesn't happen.

 

are you really trying to tell me that having your wing bent in a weird shape won't effect your aircraft in combat ?

 

even so next time you pull that same maneuver, chances are your wing might break off...

 

And yes we are discussing FMs and DMs as they are all connected ... what did you think we are discussing ?

 

I've seen people pull 9-10 Gs with mk82s on the wings. Watch 104th_Maverick's videos (love you Mav)

 

So you think that no way of punishment (like structural damage) should be applied to people when they use the g-leaver without caution ?

 

But, yes, to be honest I am guessing here.... Who knows the Hornet might be fully capable of doing that...

 

See I am not saying that, that the moment you pull that leaver you should get your wings snapped....

 

I am not talking about people dogfighting in light aircraft with no massive weight on their wings ...

 

I am talking about the people who are obviously too heavy to dogfight with fuel tanks and/or bombs and yet they pull 9Gs on your ass and shoot an AIM-9X for example

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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yeah, it is not relevant to combat, because it doesn't happen.

 

are you really trying to tell me that having your wing bent in a weird shape won't effect your aircraft in combat ?

 

 

I'm saying you won't bend the wing that much.

 

 

 

even so next time you pull that same maneuver, chances are your wing might break off...

 

 

I think it'll break off on the first go if that's the case.

 

 

I've seen people pull 9-10 Gs with mk82s on the wings. Watch 104th_Maverick's videos (love you Mav)

 

 

Oh yeah, every one of his pulls is 'Flight controls' :D

 

 

 

So you think that no way of punishment (like structural damage) should be applied to people when they use the g-leaver without caution ?

 

But, yes, to be honest I am guessing here.... Who knows the Hornet might be fully capable of doing that...

 

 

Depends on the aircraft. Given that the hornet is very hi-fi, I've no doubt it'll acquire a lot of DM ... but let's think about this, too:

 

 

If you can't pull 9-10g's with a pair of mk82's there, you won't be able to do with with a pair of 120's, either.

 

 

In any case, this is all about the g-rating of that hardpoint/pylon ... think about it this way. 4xmk-82 = 2000lbs. That's like hauling 4 sparrows. So ... should the wings magically break because it's mk-82's...?

 

 

So let's talk gross weight. If the FBW is letting you pull 9-10g's, maybe it's ok? Maybe the GW is low enough that it'll permit this.

 

 

See I am not saying that, that the moment you pull that leaver you should get your wings snapped....

 

I am not talking about people dogfighting in light aircraft with no massive weight on their wings ...

 

I am talking about the people who are obviously too heavy to dogfight with fuel tanks and/or bombs and yet they pull 9Gs on your ass and shoot an AIM-9X for example

 

 

Are they ... obviously too heavy? Do you know the GW? A couple of heavy hornets demonstrated heavy maneuvering while shooting down a couple of MiG-21's RL. Specifically high lateral, which is 'worse' than plain +Gz.

 

 

Again I've no doubt that the Hornet needs more polishing. In fact I'm not convinced that the g-limiter defeat is a real defeat as in, it relaxes the limit and you may continue care-free handling. In this aircraft, that is.

 

Punishment? For what? Pulling max-g in a war-time situation?

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Being wartime and not being cautious doesn't mean you shouldn't be punished for over-pushing the aircraft...

 

See here is the thing... you say Max G and I am saying over max G.

 

It really comes down to the situation, am I right ? I am nowhere stating, that Max G should be punished or not possible....

 

Here is the question... is using the G-leaver still limiting you to exploitational max G for your weight or are you going above that...

 

My logic is, that it lets you go over that, because it would kinda go against its idea...

 

If it does, that is the area where structural fatigue and damage start coming up (induced)....

 

The fatigue part was connected to my comment about not being able to do the same high G maneuver twice in a row (twice being an example). Obviously, structural damage is not a must when over that exploitational limit(especially when you are doing it smoothly)....

 

So yeah it really comes down to how detailed the DM is going to be.... sooo lets see

 

Oh, and if someone can snap a piece from the manual about the G-leaver, that could be great. Thanks

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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It would come down to weight (configured)

 

If you had dropped your ordnance etc for evasive maneuvers, then it's possibly still within limits of what the system will allow, aircraft will still need to be check and would be OK. Instantaneous G's with stores, now that I'm not sure about and would like to know myself if this could cause Instantaneous structural damage?

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It does seem a bit strange atm. Since there are no repercussions it seems you should just tape the button down...

There shouldn't be repercussions for a single flight, even if it's done 100 times in that flight. The aircraft could likely do these high stress manoeuvres and keep doing it for a couple thousand flight hours. The override doesn't let you magically do a million G's, it gives 30% more than the current FCS limit, based on weight.

 

Lotta folks asking for something in this thread that's beginning to sound very much like "balancing" for multiplayer. It could be that some agile 4th red fighters are finding themselves in situations where a Hornet is pulling solution on them when they don't expect them to, or just tightening the turn a bit more than they expected, while they are trying to gain a solution.

 

If you're looking for balance in MP, this is not the title for you.

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If you're looking for balance in MP, this is not the title for you.

 

Do you want to start another MP conspiracy driven drama, as this is how you start one.

 

 

So PLEASE, do that somewhere else, thank you.

 

Ow and yeah how could have I forgotten, structural stress is only applied after you have landed, right ? At the end of your turn, cuz we flying in an RPG game.

 

So drama starters aside... Has anyone found any quotes from the NATOPS ?

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Do you want to start another MP conspiracy driven drama, as this is how you start one.

 

 

So PLEASE, do that somewhere else, thank you.

 

 

(Stares at thread title.)

 

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

 

You tell me.

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Unless it's some kind of Red Flag campaign where you have to face the crew chief after and can easily be downed from further fying I see no reason in penalizing the pilot... aparat from future DM and physics effects.

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