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Old 03-25-2019, 05:22 PM   #41
Emu
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Originally Posted by Dudikoff View Post
Evil Democrat presidents killing off the Raptor? LOL

Sorry, I was laughing at your post.

As far as I can read here, it was cut down by OSD during Rumsfeld time to 179. I guess the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were draining their budget and took priority to what the USAF wanted/needed.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...production.htm
Page 44 of AIR International July 2015. Congress authorised purchases for 381 F-22s.

Under Obama they asked for 272 but Gates said it was too high, so they reduced it to 240 but Gates wanted to shut down the production and on APril 13th 2009 he succeeded. Gates was a Republican but he never managed to achieve the shutdown under Bush, Obama kept him on and he sacked Wynne and Mosley in order to progress his agenda.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:10 PM   #42
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Page 44 of AIR International July 2015. Congress authorised purchases for 381 F-22s.

Under Obama they asked for 272 but Gates said it was too high, so they reduced it to 240 but Gates wanted to shut down the production and on APril 13th 2009 he succeeded. Gates was a Republican but he never managed to achieve the shutdown under Bush, Obama kept him on and he sacked Wynne and Mosley in order to progress his agenda.
So, what does Gates' desire to end the program have to do with all those presidents you've listed in the previous post? Or President Obama?

Congress could have easily voted to continue the production against the administration's proposal of the FY2010 budget, but they didn't.

There's no secret agenda, just short-sightedness and different budget priorities and views on the usefulness of the F-22, especially since at the time it had many bugs and was considered as rather expensive to maintain.

I guess back then they didn't seem to expect China to field advanced stealth fighters of their own anytime soon.

Here's the report used to brief the congressmen before that vote, I guess.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl31673.pdf
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:06 PM   #43
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So, what does Gates' desire to end the program have to do with all those presidents you've listed in the previous post? Or President Obama?

Congress could have easily voted to continue the production against the administration's proposal of the FY2010 budget, but they didn't.

There's no secret agenda, just short-sightedness and different budget priorities and views on the usefulness of the F-22, especially since at the time it had many bugs and was considered as rather expensive to maintain.

I guess back then they didn't seem to expect China to field advanced stealth fighters of their own anytime soon.

Here's the report used to brief the congressmen before that vote, I guess.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl31673.pdf
His desire to end it was blocked while Bush remained in charge. Why did Obama keep a Republican as Defense Secretary?

Shortsightedness. If that vote had been delayed just 2 years they would have. In 2010 the Su-57 and J-20 hadn't flown yet and the F-22 hadn't been used in Syria yet. Very naive decision-making.
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:03 AM   #44
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Absolutely, but since the production line is done there's no going back on that decision short of something really big happening like, say, the F22 being cleared for export
The F-22 Tooling and dies were destroyed. Even with the blueprints it would cost a fortune to start over.

There is nothing wrong with the F-15, F-16, F/A-18E/Fs and A-10s.

Yes they are "Old" designed but when these aircraft were designed they weren't designed by politicians looking at a price tag. They were designed by engineers looking for the best performance possible.

The second problem is exactly what happened to the F-22. The original plan was to replace ALL of the A,B,C,D eagles and Falcons p with F-22s. Politicians and Politics got involved and we ended up with 180. Why? So money could be funneled to the F-35...now the F-35 is being looked at for cuts and we're not going to get enough of them to replace what they wanted to replace...it's a pretty pathetic cycle.

We need an air superiority fighter no matter what politicians and fan bois tell ya. The Current F-15X and F-18E/Fs can fill the gaps until something that can SURPASS them comes along.
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:02 AM   #45
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His desire to end it was blocked while Bush remained in charge. Why did Obama keep a Republican as Defense Secretary?
That's not true at all as nothing was blocked during the Bush administration. Rumsfeld and Gates were the major proponents of the idea to kill the F-22 as a single-use Cold War relic that wasn't useful to their current wars (compared to e.g. the upcoming F-35) and during Rumsfeld era, the number proposed by the OSD was cut down to 187 as I posted earlier.

The only reason why this came to a head during Obama administration was that at that time those 187 were paid for already and the decision had to be made whether to stop the production or continue it. Gates as the SecDef didn't add any F-22's in the proposed FY2010 budget and the Congress ratified it. The Congress could have opposed it and fight the administration on it, but didn't. Why? Because it made sense at the time given the state of the program and the dire state of the budget.

As to why Obama kept Gates, it was due to some political reasons that I'm not familiar with, but that had nothing to do with the F-22. The presidents don't stress about these military toys, they let other people handle these matters.
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:31 AM   #46
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That's not true at all as nothing was blocked during the Bush administration. Rumsfeld and Gates were the major proponents of the idea to kill the F-22 as a single-use Cold War relic that wasn't useful to their current wars (compared to e.g. the upcoming F-35) and during Rumsfeld era, the number proposed by the OSD was cut down to 187 as I posted earlier.

The only reason why this came to a head during Obama administration was that at that time those 187 were paid for already and the decision had to be made whether to stop the production or continue it. Gates as the SecDef didn't add any F-22's in the proposed FY2010 budget and the Congress ratified it. The Congress could have opposed it and fight the administration on it, but didn't. Why? Because it made sense at the time given the state of the program and the dire state of the budget.

As to why Obama kept Gates, it was due to some political reasons that I'm not familiar with, but that had nothing to do with the F-22. The presidents don't stress about these military toys, they let other people handle these matters.
It wasn't though. Read the reference I gave. The number was 381 at the end of the Bush administration. The number was never cut to 187 specifically, that was just how many planes they'd made when they killed production in April '09.

Gates had to get rid of Wynne and Mosley to get his way. During the Bush years he couldn't find an excuse for this, but he used the mistake with the accidental loading of the nuclear-tipped AGM-129s onto a B-52 as an excuse. After that he was free to get his own way because Schwartz was more pliable. Mosley and Wynne knew that their defiance would eventually cost them their jobs as USAF chiefs. Even Schwartz asked for 272 though. He then reduced that to 240, but they cut it anyway.

I can't see any other reason for Obama keeping a Republican Defense Secretary.
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