Taming the spitfire with pedals

I have managed to takeoff reasonably often without dying (in full simulation, no assist) using the joystick twist on my x55 for rudder control, but they are pretty ugly takeoffs no matter how much I pulse the rudder inputs and adjust the rudder control curves

 

Has anyone managed to use the same sort of rudder control (joystick twist) to achieve graceful takeoffs or is it just impossible to do it well without pedals?

 

Why could they not have increased the toe-in on the undercarriage :)

Has anyone managed to use the same sort of rudder control (joystick twist) to achieve graceful takeoffs or is it just impossible to do it well without pedals?

Like bbrz said, it is next to impossible to land/take off without pedals.

However, I wouldn't say it was necessary to spend a lot. I have been using the Thrustmaster TFRP T-Flight pedals perfectly well on the Spit (and all other modules). They cost around £80 on Amazon UK.

I have a X52 pro without pedals and curves and I've managed to achieve quite a lot of nice take-offs and landings, mixed with some "meh" ones and ugly ones. Most of them were nice though.

 

All you need is practice and then, nothing is impossible.

Like bbrz said, it is next to impossible to land/take off without pedals.

 

Utter tosh!

 

The Spit is fine to t/o + land without pedals.

 

Does it make it easier? Yes, not denying that.

Impossible with a twist stick? Not by a longshot.

Indeed,

 

for this sort of flght simulation games, Track-Ir and a rudder control system were my best peripheral buys ever...

 

I couldn't play DCS or IL2 Battle of without it...

 

It's also good for Condor.

There is no reason at all why you can't do decent TO/landings with a twist stick. I did all my initial training using the X-52, until I could do it consistently, which took a lot of practice. The first 3 successful landings, I posted on this forum. When I bought pedals, the big difference was the sheer satisfaction of doing the same thing in a realistic manner.

Stick, Trackir, pedals.

 

..

Edited December 4, 2017 by Holbeach
Grammar.

I would highly suggest MFG crosswind pedals. If you are saving for pedals that is.

I've used the T16000M twist grip for years but even the high precision/resolution wasn't enough as I found out.

 

You was deceived, that 65.535 "HEART" precision is only in T.16000M X and Y axes, twist (rudder) and throttle are only 8/10 bits using cheap potentiometer. :D

Because my playing space is limited (live in a caravan) I decided pedals were not practical. So I spent the whole afternoon practising, and after dozens of takeoffs I am happy I have takeoffs to an acceptable level. Not perfectly smooth, but not too bad.

Now all I have to do is get the landing correct :)

I would highly suggest MFG crosswind pedals. If you are saving for pedals that is.

Could you please explain to me the relationship between the brakes on the spitfire and the tail wheel. Exactly how do they interact in regards to directional travel, since the spitfire does not have differential braking? It seems to me that rudder would be the solution, I understand their may not be enough rudder authority initially but at what speed does the rudder become useful? I'm not a engineer or pilot but they must of had a lot of take-off mishaps due to control issue during WWII. This plane is too too sensitive to directional control on the ground, the wing will dip even when moving at a very slow rate of speed. The free casting tail-wheel is to free. TC

Unless I have it wrong the Spitfire does have differential braking but it's activated by a combo of rudder position and brake lever on the stick

 

Rudder position controls the magnitude of the differential, in other words if you have full left rudder for example then all brake force will be routed to the left gear wheel only. If you have the rudder somewhere in between then the braking applied to each wheel is proportional to the rudder position.

 

The lever controls the amount of overall brake force applied.

 

That's how I think it works and is similar to Russian aircraft in its implementation.

Unless I have it wrong the Spitfire does have differential braking but it's activated by a combo of rudder position and brake lever on the stick

 

Rudder position controls the magnitude of the differential, in other words if you have full left rudder for example then all brake force will be routed to the left gear wheel only. If you have the rudder somewhere in between then the braking applied to each wheel is proportional to the rudder position.

 

The lever controls the amount of overall brake force applied.

 

That's how I think it works and is similar to Russian aircraft in its implementation.

If that's so then explain to me how you are able to correct a wing drag if one wheel is off the ground, if there is not enough airflow to effect the rudder then how is there enough to effect the ailerons. Maybe I'm thinking to hard but I'm just trying to understand how this works so as to help me understand how to operate this plane.. Thanks for your response. TC

The plane dips a wing only if it yaws too much, just like remainig DCS warbirds, the only difference is the narrow gear making the margin of error much narrower (though with vastly superior rudder authority it's still easier to keep in line than 109 with unlocked tailwheel, and sometimes with locked one too).

 

Indeed, If the speed is not enough for sufficient airflow on the rudder, it's not enough for ailerons either. If controls can't help, you can try to catch and straighten the dip using differential brakes. Left dip is a result of plane groundlooping to the right - apply the left brake then, it will "pull" the plane back to the left. Conversely, right dip is a result of left yaw - apply right brake to pull back to the right. You do it intuitively anyway, as these are directions you've already pushed the rudder to save the plane.

The plane dips a wing only if it yaws too much, just like remainig DCS warbirds, the only difference is the narrow gear making the margin of error much narrower (though with vastly superior rudder authority it's still easier to keep in line than 109 with unlocked tailwheel, and sometimes with locked one too).

 

Indeed, If the speed is not enough for sufficient airflow on the rudder, it's not enough for ailerons either. If controls can't help, you can try to catch and straighten the dip using differential brakes. Left dip is a result of plane groundlooping to the right - apply the left brake then, it will "pull" the plane back to the left. Conversely, right dip is a result of left yaw - apply right brake to pull back to the right. You do it intuitively anyway, as these are directions you've already pushed the rudder to save the plane.

What I would like to know, how can left braking do anything if the left wheel is completely off the ground? TC

What I would like to know, how can left braking do anything if the left wheel is completely off the ground? TC

What Art-J is saying, TC, is that when your right wing has dropped and your left wheel is off the ground, you need to apply right rudder and brake, to bring things back to an even keel. Try it, it works, just don't overdo it.

Buzzles....From my limited experience on the IX I found that take-off and landing is possible without rudder pedals, but ground handling and taxi-ing is impossible without them. I have ordered mine.

Buzzles....From my limited experience on the IX I found that take-off and landing is possible without rudder pedals, but ground handling and taxi-ing is impossible without them. I have ordered mine.

What?!? No pedals on landing/takeoff? I’d love to see that!

Sorry....I mean actual pedals. I have rudder bound to two buttons on the stick. Thats ok for takeoff, flight and landing. But they are useless while taxy-ing. You cannot taxy without pedals.

Sorry....I mean actual pedals. I have rudder bound to two buttons on the stick. Thats ok for takeoff, flight and landing. But they are useless while taxy-ing. You cannot taxy without pedals.

Phew, that's a relief! Now I understand. I don't feel so inadequate now!

If you trim your rudder fully right and your elevator one division nose down, and you apply only +7 boost, there's hardly any need for rudder on takeoff. This being said, pedals are a must for a simulator as realistic as DCS.

I struggled with the rudder on the spitfire for a while, I found using toe breaks very difficult, but after I made a custom brake lever on my hotas and stopped using toe brakes on my pedals things became easier.

Yes, I agree. I've always used the NWS button on the Warthog HOTAS for brakes on the Spit.

I struggled with the rudder on the spitfire for a while, I found using toe breaks very difficult, but after I made a custom brake lever on my hotas and stopped using toe brakes on my pedals things became easier.

 

 

 

This ^^

 

 

The Spitfire does not have toe brakes, so binding the spit brakes to rudder pedals will mean you are doing something that makes no sense, ergonomoically, for the aircraft.

A lever/ paddle mimics the actual control setup much more closely, and will feel more natural.

Unless I have it wrong the Spitfire does have differential braking but it's activated by a combo of rudder position and brake lever on the stick

 

Rudder position controls the magnitude of the differential, in other words if you have full left rudder for example then all brake force will be routed to the left gear wheel only. If you have the rudder somewhere in between then the braking applied to each wheel is proportional to the rudder position.

 

The lever controls the amount of overall brake force applied.

 

That's how I think it works and is similar to Russian aircraft in its implementation.

 

In the Russian planes what the 'differential valve' (pic 3 and 5) linked to rudder bar do is vent for atmosphere the air pressure in the wheel that will be not braked anymore, so the brake force there is ALL (valve closed) or NOTHING (valve open).

 

The 'differential valve' don't determine the amount of pressure that goes for this wheel.

 

The pressure in the other wheel remain the same determined by brake lever (in control column), without influence of rudder bar position.

 

Rudder bar just open of close the vent valve for one wheel at time.

 

 

No clue how the valve linked to Spitfire rudder bar work. But the "hisss" sound suggest the same operation. :)

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Sokol1_br

Sokol1_br...excellent research and good info. I would like to go back to 1936 to Vickers Supermarine and tell them : "Please don't go with rudder and "stick handle" braking. Talk to North American first and you will save simulator operators in the future a lot of blood sweat and tears!" TF 51 is a "gentleman" on the deck.