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Help with Handling the Spitfire Mk IX (25 Feb was one of the worst days of my...)


imacken

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I cross the threshold 85-90 mph. I am not very high at that point.

I ease in a little up trim as I slowly start to sink.

I continue to ease in more back pressure as I am inches above the runway, until it is at pretty much a stall point as the three wheels touch the ground.

I ease on a little brake with very slight rudder corrections ( and full back stick) as it rolls to a stop fairly quickly.

 

It certainly is not easy, but when you hit it just right it is oh so sweet. I can do it more than not now, but occasionally will still flub one up here and there.

 

Post a video when you can and I am sure someone may see something there that may help.

 

Btw it took me many many hours to get to that point.

Don B

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OK guys, here are 2 fairly typical scenarios. Not the best or the worst of my attempts.

Please feel free to pile on the criticism!

http://igmack.co.uk/spit1.mp4

http://igmack.co.uk/spit2.mp4

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OK guys, here are 2 fairly typical scenarios. Not the best or the worst of my attempts.

Please feel free to pile on the criticism!

http://igmack.co.uk/spit1.mp4

http://igmack.co.uk/spit2.mp4

 

 

1: Your crosswind leg before final approach is too close to the runway. Does not give you much time to properly line up the plane to the runway with a steady gradual sink rate.

 

2: Final you are using the elevator, down to force the place down and up to try and get it back to position to land. You do not want to use the elevator , you want to use the engine to control a steady descent rate with the aircraft trimmed for the descent rate.

 

3: Too much rudder input and too late upon landing, and too late on applying brakes - and too much brakes applied when you do.

 

4: Coming in a little too hot.

 

My suggestions:

 

Line up further out. More like 3-4 times that distance if not little more. I am usually around 1,000 ft and descending slight on my crosswind leg before final.

On final trim the elevator and adjust engine throttle to descend around 2-3 ticks below level with a speed of app 90. Then stay off that elevator. Use the throttle and elevator trim to control your descent rate and speed.

Once you get your distance and altitude right when first starting on final, you should cross the runway threshold just a few feet above it. I typically cross it around 85-90 while descending that 2-3 ticks.

 

After crossing threshold I put another click or two up trim in, and start easing back a little on throttle, and the plane starts to settle down to the runway, Keep an eye on speed, don't let it drop much below 80 at this point. When I am very close to ground I gradually feed in little up elevator, slowly pull back on throttle and the plane will settle into a 3 point touchdown.

 

As soon as those three wheels touch I pull slowly full back fully on elevator whilst feeding in small amount of braking pressure at the same time. It is maybe around 20-30 % brake pressure just guessing. Very slight rudder inputs just to insure it rolls straight as can be to a full stop. Done properly the plane will roll to a fairly quick stop. If you wait till the plane starts turning before rudder it will likely be too late to correct. Then trying to correct with a lot of rudder and wingtips dip to runway.

 

Just remember some main things:

 

Get lined up good and with enough room to get properly set up on final.

Control your gradual descent rate and speed with elevator trim only and throttle. And of course have rudder trimmed best you can for a good straight approach. Any heading corrections to alignment should be very slight.

Never try to force the plane down close to the runway with the elevator. Let her settle in with throttle and back pressure.

 

Anyway the above is just based on my experience and what works for me. And it took me quite some time - many hours - before getting to that point.

I hope some of this helps. Keep persevering , the rewards are well worth it!


Edited by dburne

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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OK guys, here are 2 fairly typical scenarios. Not the best or the worst of my attempts.

Please feel free to pile on the criticism!

http://igmack.co.uk/spit1.mp4

http://igmack.co.uk/spit2.mp4

 

So I think you're pretty close, your touchdown attitude and landing speed is good, no bouncing. You're coming in a little hot, but you bleed the speed over the runway not force the plane down which is good. For me all of your issues are in the rollout.

 

What's letting you down is your footwork. As dburne says, your inputs are too big and too late. This is causing you to get into an over-correction cycle where you go too far one way, so slam it hard the other, then overcorrect and have to push even harder back the other way. It's why you roll over from one wing onto the other in both videos.

 

So ... try alternating rudder inputs left-right-left-right-left-right really quickly like this:

left-right-left-right-left-right gentle stabs. If you want to go more left give it a bigger stab on the left. If you want to move more right, use a bigger stab on the right, but either way keep the rhythm going! If you really need to do a big correction, add a touch of brake (not hard, just a quick "blip"), but keep that left-right rhythm and never hold down any one direction for a sustained period. Even when you more or less want to keep going straight: left-right-left-right, just gently.


Edited by Tomsk
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...could hear my wife laughing at my landings!

It's not just me then ;)

 

For me, the biggest bit of advice was to memorise the "on ground picture" and trim to get as close to that in the final floaty stages before touchdown.

 

The other thing that helped me a lot was to never ever try to do a straight in approach. You just cant see the runway for long enough. Always do a curved in approach left or right depending on wind conditions, and always be prepared to counter torque effects.

 

I still scrape my wingtips quite often though, but it's usually because I have overcontrolled. The fact is, unless you have a 3 foot long throw and realistic weightings on your stick, it really just comes down to muscle memory, 'cos we are trying to control a sportscar with a toy stering wheel. Either way, it's a lot cheaper than a go in a real Spitfire isn't it?

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For me, the biggest bit of advice was to memorise the "on ground picture" and trim to get as close to that in the final floaty stages before touchdown.

 

Yeah that was really huge for me as well, when you realise that a "bounce" isn't a bounce but is caused by trying to land with too much speed and at the wrong attitude.

 

The other thing that helped me a lot was to never ever try to do a straight in approach. You just cant see the runway for long enough.

 

You can do straight in approaches, but then need to be rather steep in the Spitfire, which comes with its own challenges. Curved ones are actually quite a bit easier.

 

I still scrape my wingtips quite often though, but it's usually because I have overcontrolled.

 

That's all about the footwork IMO. This was the other big thing for me, learning to stab and re-centre rather than holding. Lots of small corrections rather than big long ones. The Spitfire is especially hard, the P-51 and Dora are a lot more forgiving.

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One other thing that helps me in the final stages is if i "cheat" and apply about 2 or 3 clicks (200-300 psi?) brakes before landing.

 

Note that this is only possible if you have set buttons for "Wheel Brakes" (the lever on my stick), "Wheel Brakes INCREASE" and "Wheel Brakes DECREASE" buttons. A touch of the brake lever overrides the inc/dec setting so it is pretty safe to use.

 

Oh and I found another nice set of notes on takeoff & landing procedures for a Spit that I havent seen before, http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?72714-SUPERMARINE-SPITFIRE-Take-off-and-Landing-Guide

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OK guys, here are 2 fairly typical scenarios. Not the best or the worst of my attempts.

Please feel free to pile on the criticism!

http://igmack.co.uk/spit1.mp4

http://igmack.co.uk/spit2.mp4

 

I think it would help if you moved your head back farther in the cockpit. You will notice any deviation from straight ahead faster and correct sooner.

Pause, hold R Ctrl and R Shift, use keypad (top) buttons to move head back. Save with Alt keypad 0. In controls/misc you need to check "save user snap view".

I see your head tracker has trouble keeping centered, I think that might be hurting you. What are you using?

 

Also don't use flaps at this stage, you'll have more time to get lined up.

And yes preload the brakes a bit. Makes your rudder more effective in the learning stages. If it starts dropping a wingtip try adding lots of brake while you correct.

 

I'm still trying to get this recording thing tweaked but try this. I don't always remember to hit the TS transmit button when speaking(reduces the game sounds).

I'm zoomed out far enough you can watch all the controls. I never really noticed before but I'm holding a surprising amount of rudder on touchdown to keep the nose lined up.

 


Edited by Perfesser
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Sight picture - get an idea of where the horizon should be relative to your view in the cockpit during a 3 point landing and keep trying until you reach it. You should never try to land on the 2 front wheels; all you will do is bounce and bounce. Best tip? Try to land tail first. If you try this, you might find out that you are actually attempting a 3 point landing. Or you can try this for some reference points...before you take off, mark the horizon on your monitor with a sticky on both sides of the cockpit, and try to match the horizon up like so when you attempt to land. You will be able to tell if you are too nose high or low from that point.


Edited by Hammer1-1

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Thank you all for your time and advice. It is appreciated. I have read and tried to take in all the advice offered here. This forum is so impressive!

There is progress. I think I know what I need to do to make a good landing. I still don't manage it every time, but more regularly than before!

What is odd though, I find I can pretty much manage a drama-free landing almost every time using the 'brakes pre-load' method. I have shied away from using this in the part, as it seems like a cheat. Why does this work so well for some people.

Another question, what exactly is 'perfectly trimmed' in terms of landing? I have always tried to trim so that I could almost take my hand of the stick, and the plane would fly on any given path. Is that correct?

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Thank you all for your time and advice. It is appreciated. I have read and tried to take in all the advice offered here. This forum is so impressive!

There is progress. I think I know what I need to do to make a good landing. I still don't manage it every time, but more regularly than before!

 

That's good to hear mate, a lot of this is practise, the constant refining of your technique is just part of the DCS experience and we all were humbled at first by the skittishness of our dear old Spitty.

 

What is odd though, I find I can pretty much manage a drama-free landing almost every time using the 'brakes pre-load' method. I have shied away from using this in the part, as it seems like a cheat. Why does this work so well for some people.

 

No real pilot would do this as it a) presents a risk of nose over and b) would provide massive wear on the brakes; the point of doing it is to give your corrective actions more instantaneous 'bite' thus allowing greater directional controllability during the landing phase than relying on rudder action alone. However it can be done and done so repeatedly without brakes to the point that in zero wind conditions it is possible to land and come to a stop without requiring any brakes whatsoever.

 

 

Another question, what exactly is 'perfectly trimmed' in terms of landing? I have always tried to trim so that I could almost take my hand of the stick, and the plane would fly on any given path. Is that correct?

 

Yes. You trim to relieve pressure on the controls at a particular power/speed combination that is desired, that's when you can fly 'hands off', so you are doing it right. Just be wary of flying by trim which is regarded as poor airmanship.

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Another question, what exactly is 'perfectly trimmed' in terms of landing? I have always tried to trim so that I could almost take my hand of the stick, and the plane would fly on any given path. Is that correct?

 

I trim the rudder as best I can for straight ahead.

I trim the elevator and adjust throttle when I am close on approach for a speed of around 90 and sink rate around 2-3 marks down.

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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  • 1 year later...

Thomas Palmar video was a big help to us all I reckon.

 

 

I listened carefully and heard him say "Nose up...nose up...nose up" with the elevator trim on approach with gear and flaps. You have to have it bound somewhere on your HOTAS so you can adjust without taking your eyes away from the threshold.

 

A huge help for my landings.

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