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F-14 low speed prowess vs Other Aircraft


Hummingbird

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True, but for how long? My experiences with delta wings in the past have made me wince in that regard.

 

As I said before, I'm no Tomcat professional, but STR was purported to be the F-14's forte due to the massive lifting surface(s) it possessed. If I was in the front seat of an F-14 and knew that I was about to tangle with someone, I would want every advantage my mount could give me. I just don't see that being possible at full wing sweep, hence the reason I questioned whether or not it would be a sound idea to override the CADC and force the wings to remain at 20 degrees.

 

As always, if I'm wrong about something then, Tomcat experts, please school me. It's at least half of the reason I visit this forum.

 

You left the wings in Auto, period, for air combat. The rest is artificial BS in a training environment. IF some nimrod hit the pass with the wings swept fulyl aft, you could easily tell by the closure rate and attitude as he went by (usually this was attempted when someone was too low on fuel to use AB for the last engagement).

 

We used to hear F15 drivers talk about how they could tell our energy state from our sweep value, then I'd ask "so what is the wing sweep schedule"? Not one had a clue. OK, "What is the wing sweep value that would preclude a vertical killing move?" Uh, well, um, not really sure there sir...

 

The problem is that the Tomcat could do a loop from a very low energy state, down to 180 KIAS for the B/D, where the wings would be fully forward. Up to .82 Mach or so, the wings moved very little, a flat curve that didn't say much about velocity. From .8 to .9, they'd sweep fully aft. Anywhere in that regime, there was plenty of energy to extend and leave.

 

So the whole wing sweep issue is a lot of fighter pilot at the bar bullshit.

 

Same crap you still hear about the AIM54C. I still have F15 guys try to tell me what the missile could and could not do.

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You left the wings in Auto, period, for air combat. The rest is artificial BS in a training environment. IF some nimrod hit the pass with the wings swept fulyl aft, you could easily tell by the closure rate and attitude as he went by (usually this was attempted when someone was too low on fuel to use AB for the last engagement).

 

We used to hear F15 drivers talk about how they could tell our energy state from our sweep value, then I'd ask "so what is the wing sweep schedule"? Not one had a clue. OK, "What is the wing sweep value that would preclude a vertical killing move?" Uh, well, um, not really sure there sir...

 

The problem is that the Tomcat could do a loop from a very low energy state, down to 180 KIAS for the B/D, where the wings would be fully forward. Up to .82 Mach or so, the wings moved very little, a flat curve that didn't say much about velocity. From .8 to .9, they'd sweep fully aft. Anywhere in that regime, there was plenty of energy to extend and leave.

 

So the whole wing sweep issue is a lot of fighter pilot at the bar bullshit.

 

Same crap you still hear about the AIM54C. I still have F15 guys try to tell me what the missile could and could not do.

From the horses mouth indeed...

 

That definitely answers my question. Thank you for the reply.

 

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You left the wings in Auto, period, for air combat. The rest is artificial BS in a training environment. IF some nimrod hit the pass with the wings swept fulyl aft, you could easily tell by the closure rate and attitude as he went by (usually this was attempted when someone was too low on fuel to use AB for the last engagement).

 

We used to hear F15 drivers talk about how they could tell our energy state from our sweep value, then I'd ask "so what is the wing sweep schedule"? Not one had a clue. OK, "What is the wing sweep value that would preclude a vertical killing move?" Uh, well, um, not really sure there sir...

 

The problem is that the Tomcat could do a loop from a very low energy state, down to 180 KIAS for the B/D, where the wings would be fully forward. Up to .82 Mach or so, the wings moved very little, a flat curve that didn't say much about velocity. From .8 to .9, they'd sweep fully aft. Anywhere in that regime, there was plenty of energy to extend and leave.

 

So the whole wing sweep issue is a lot of fighter pilot at the bar bullshit.

 

Same crap you still hear about the AIM54C. I still have F15 guys try to tell me what the missile could and could not do.

 

WORD.

 

-disclaimer to all here and I'm sure you all know from clicking on my profile- I am not an actual turkeydriver- its just my handle from Delphi forum days.

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Is the only factor lift? Are other attributes considered? Most importantly, how would you employ the Tomcat vs how should you employ the Tomcat?

 

This is exactly why i made the post in the first place. I.E. if you enter your first break at 450 KIAS you may end up in entirely different pickle then you would by entering at 500 KIAS. Pulling 10g may not always be the best idea. I'm trying to figure out the best merge geometry here. :thumbup:

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Untargeted entry behind 3-9 line.

 

LOL, all right.....second best then! :laugh:

And don't tell me it's from bellow..... :D

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This is exactly why i made the post in the first place. I.E. if you enter your first break at 450 KIAS you may end up in entirely different pickle then you would by entering at 500 KIAS. Pulling 10g may not always be the best idea. I'm trying to figure out the best merge geometry here. :thumbup:

 

Pulling 10g in any jet is a bad idea and useful only as a last ditch break to dodge a missile shot. Even in an F-16, I wouldn't practice pulling more than 7g sustained as there isn't any real point.

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Pulling 10g in any jet is a bad idea and useful only as a last ditch break to dodge a missile shot. Even in an F-16, I wouldn't practice pulling more than 7g sustained as there isn't any real point.

 

Have just finished watching the 5 part Belgian TV docu/series F-16 and they regularly take the F-16s up to 9g+ especially after routine maintenance.

 

One pilot has had to retire from flying the F-16 as his body can no longer take the strain and pain from pulling high g manoeuvres, he was only 42, now he flies as first officer/co pilot on an AWACS, while he spoke about it and seen his last flight on episode 2 it was only on episode 5 that we got a bit more information, he has a large slow beating heart and under g-force it was moving down against his diaphragm and causing problems, he was also commenting on the fact that it was better to have a smaller faster beating heart to keep the pressure up to help fend off g-loc.

 

It was one recurring comment on flying the F-16 was the pain it put the body through pulling high g, there was always a physio on hand to help work out the knots in the muscles from sustained g-manoeuvres.

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Many fighter pilots get the G-damage and have to retire because of what happens to their body. The F-16 is designed as a 9G sustained jet- so that has to be tested during a functional test to prove nothing breaks at that g- it has nothing to do with actual usefulness during a dogfight. The F-14 has an interceptor mission so its acceleration to Mach 1.6?(might be 1.4) is tested after heavy maintenance or engine replacements to ensure it can achieve that speed- it doesn't mean F-14s routinely attain Mach 1.6 flying peacetime or wartime missions. I'm sure most F-14 drivers will tell you the fastest they flew was during a post- engine maintenance FCF. A few guys hung it out up high and have hit the magical 2.5, but they don't go bragging about it to their CO or maintenance officer LOL.

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Perhaps the Belgians do it differently, but there is a thing called over g. Going to 10gees in any airframe constitutes an over g inspection. There is a high chance that something important could or did break. The over g rate is counted in video frames from the HUD cam. How many frames the jet stayed over the g limit is what determines which inspection is performed. This is always reported and a severe over g can down an aircraft for a while. This disturbs the phase inspection cycle and flying hours that the jet needs to fly to stay on schedule. Pilots are NOT congratulated for this. Disrupting the maintenance flow for an ego maneuver might seem fun, but later when pilots can't get qual'd because someone hard broke a jet there is a different tune. Mistakes happen, especially during BFM or against Red Air, but this isn't something a pilot does haphazardly. Not saying it's never happened mind you, just painting the full picture.

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Perhaps the Belgians do it differently, but there is a thing called over g. Going to 10gees in any airframe constitutes an over g inspection. There is a high chance that something important could or did break. The over g rate is counted in video frames from the HUD cam. How many frames the jet stayed over the g limit is what determines which inspection is performed. This is always reported and a severe over g can down an aircraft for a while. This disturbs the phase inspection cycle and flying hours that the jet needs to fly to stay on schedule. Pilots are NOT congratulated for this. Disrupting the maintenance flow for an ego maneuver might seem fun, but later when pilots can't get qual'd because someone hard broke a jet there is a different tune. Mistakes happen, especially during BFM or against Red Air, but this isn't something a pilot does haphazardly. Not saying it's never happened mind you, just painting the full picture.

 

The HUD was showing 9.1g for a few seconds during the test flight, the pilot was the one that does the solo displays at the airshows etc. He sought and got permission from ATC before doing each manoeuvre whether the 9g test or going supersonic.

 

The young student pilot doing his first set of BFM in the F-16 looked really wrung out when he came back to the base.

 

Mind you, watching the show taxed my understanding of the Flemish language as I'm not a native speaker :)

 

The show was filmed just a few km from me, I live under the flight path from KB airbase, it was also filmed in Jordan and Estonia with the flights that are deployed there.

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Clan Cameron

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Pulling 10g in any jet is a bad idea and useful only as a last ditch break to dodge a missile shot. Even in an F-16, I wouldn't practice pulling more than 7g sustained as there isn't any real point.

 

It's not something you'd do very often (hopefully), and yet at times you might need to. Or be goaded to. And if at the moment of being forced into one you are doing 500 knots......

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Don't think an F-15 can do a 19.5 sec 360 deg min radius turn like that, fastest I've seen is 22 sec for the F-15.

 

Man I can't wait for the F-14 :bounce:

Exactly, though in DCS the F-15 can do about 14 seconds for a 360 (until the velocity vector comes on the initial heading) for the same airshow config (fuel % and smokewinders if installed). Speaking about the F-14, I also waited so much for it to appear, but what I see is that it's actual FM in DCS can make it obtain an outstanding STR and here is why:

 

-Too much landing flaps lift. Your G-load jumps quite much when using the flaps.

-Too great critical AoA for both flaps in and flaps out. Even the wing tips don't want to stall at AoAs as high as 40, thus leaving you with no roll departures and complete control about the roll axis when using the rudder. Normally it would depart in spin above 22AoA (slats only extended), no matter what you try with stick and/or rudder. All in all, this combination of too high critical AoA (in-game tests show that the lift still increases above 40 AoA) and crazy flaps lift coefficient can be absurdly exploited by the F-14 players below say 300kias. I love the F-14, but it's aero data needs some revisions!

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Exactly, though in DCS the F-15 can do about 14 seconds for a 360 (until the velocity vector comes on the initial heading) for the same airshow config (fuel % and smokewinders if installed). Speaking about the F-14, I also waited so much for it to appear, but what I see is that it's actual FM in DCS can make it obtain an outstanding STR and here is why:

 

-Too much landing flaps lift. Your G-load jumps quite much when using the flaps.

-Too great critical AoA for both flaps in and flaps out. Even the wing tips don't want to stall at AoAs as high as 40, thus leaving you with no roll departures and complete control about the roll axis when using the rudder. Normally it would depart in spin above 22AoA (slats only extended), no matter what you try with stick and/or rudder. All in all, this combination of too high critical AoA (in-game tests show that the lift still increases above 40 AoA) and crazy flaps lift coefficient can be absurdly exploited by the F-14 players below say 300kias. I love the F-14, but it's aero data needs some revisions!

 

 

Uhm, do you have any sources for that? Because with all due respect, but you are wrong.

 

At the flaps: around a 3°/sec increase below 250kts flaps deployment is indeed what happened in real life and has been confiremd by our SMEs numerous times. At the moment there is still a bug that when you exceed this speed, the punishment by breaking the flaps, increased drag etc etc is still too low. However, below 250 knots it does behave as intended, as described in many reports and as described, tested and approved by our SMEs.

 

The second thing: Where did you get that from, that it would enter a spin at 22 units AOA? That is also simply not true. Okie described to us a tactic, where he would fly the bird level, dancing on his rudders at 30 AOA, it was hard, but doable (both A and B). You can fly her up to 50 AOA without stalling (and during tests iirc even an AOA of 70 was achieved).

 

The one exploit that still exists is flaps deployment above 250kts. This is WIP atm and we already implemented some improvements in that direction, as we increased the penalties (drag, etc), with flaps above 250kts, however this needs a bit more work.

 

But that is not the only exploit players find in DCS BFM, gears down in the Mirage, Cobras in the Flankers (with almost no speed loss), hitting the G limiters as if there is no tomorrow, without any consequences to airframe and structure... I think you will find that most people, who are not good BFM pilots anyway, will struggle to hold their own in ACM even with the exploit. It is easy to get into roll reverse, adverse yaw effects, bleeding into stall speeds, spinning her and so on..

 

 

 

The aero data does not need any particular revisions of that sorts or beyond what mentioned above in this matter. I doubt there are many modules, and yes now I am patting ourselves on the back, who have as an extensive FM, research base of data, and such an incredibly high amount of SME input - which btw is ongoing, as is the fine tuning still, which means that it continues to be under revision anyway.

 

In case you wonder: we would never implement anything that has no real life proof (data), that could not be verified or would simply "give the Tomcat an advantage". For all we care if reality would be for all Tomcats to lose in all BFMs, well that's just something we'd have to live with. But the reality wasn't like that.

 

 

If you have proof that says otherwise and somehow manages to overrule what all of our SMEs and documents say, please be so kind and provide it to us and we'll take a look. :)

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Normally it would depart in spin above 22AoA (slats only extended), no matter what you try with stick and/or rudder. All in all, this combination of too high critical AoA (in-game tests show that the lift still increases above 40 AoA) and crazy flaps lift coefficient can be absurdly exploited by the F-14 players below say 300kias. I love the F-14, but it's aero data needs some revisions!

 

Errrr......have you are actually seen the data from tests performed by both NASA and Grumman? Or is this a "heard it through the grapevine" thingy?:huh:

 

Cause the wings (and i must emphasize the WINGS) don't stall at the very least before 32+ degrees of alpha (depending on wing sweep angle). These are hard wings by the way, no slats or flaps of any kind deployed. And even after the wings have stalled, the body generated lift can still be used to go into the transitional zone above 50 degrees. As long as you don't induce any side slip or wing drop, she won't even depart after that. She'll just drop her nose.

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Exactly, though in DCS the F-15 can do about 14 seconds for a 360 (until the velocity vector comes on the initial heading) for the same airshow config (fuel % and smokewinders if installed). Speaking about the F-14, I also waited so much for it to appear, but what I see is that it's actual FM in DCS can make it obtain an outstanding STR and here is why:

 

-Too much landing flaps lift. Your G-load jumps quite much when using the flaps.

-Too great critical AoA for both flaps in and flaps out. Even the wing tips don't want to stall at AoAs as high as 40, thus leaving you with no roll departures and complete control about the roll axis when using the rudder. Normally it would depart in spin above 22AoA (slats only extended), no matter what you try with stick and/or rudder. All in all, this combination of too high critical AoA (in-game tests show that the lift still increases above 40 AoA) and crazy flaps lift coefficient can be absurdly exploited by the F-14 players below say 300kias. I love the F-14, but it's aero data needs some revisions!

 

Keep in mind that I was talking about a sustained min radius turn at airshow G limits, which IIRC were set at 5.5 G's for the F-14. Without any G restrictions the F-14 can easily do a much faster 360 deg turn (same for F-15).

 

Finally we've tested the HB F-14 extensively, comparing it with the official performance charts for the real thing, and according to our results the HB F-14 is spot on both in terms of ITR & STR when everything is set to auto.

 

I know landing flaps were exploited by some players on some airquake servers, but it would almost always result in jammed flaps - and hence you don't see it on servers where you have to fly any meaningful distance to the fight and are required to safely land not to get a loss. Furtermore full flap speed limits have recently been patched AFAIK.

 

Infact in my opinion HB's F-14 FM is the best FM in DCS atm.


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