BS Auto Pilot description and operation

Just a little correction on the AUTO TURN ON TARGET. This mode can also be used in the ROUTE mode not just the HOVER. You can turn it on while on route to a waypoint and the aircraft will turn and point itself in the direction of the skhval. It will no longer chase the Waypoint. This way you can maintain forward flight in autopilot and steer the aircraft with the skhval when a target is seen so that you can engage a target in autopilot. Very useful.

 

Good post though:thumbup:

I swear I've gotten auto turn to target to work when not in hover, route, or anything. It doesn't seem to require anything specific except the HDG blue button on.

Hello to all from a long-time-lurker!

I find this discussion very curious and it is interesting that there is not total clarity even among the beta-testers how the system works in the KA-50 and in this simulation.

Try this: With all three autopilot buttons on, lift off into a stable hover. Don´t trim from now on. Step onto the rudder. Turn 50 (or any other significant amount) degrees. Let go of the rudder. What happens next: The autopilot will yaw the helicopter back to the original heading. It is NOT aware that pilot input brought the new heading about, and it WILL try to yaw the helicopter back to the original heading all the time! Even when initiating the turn you need to overcome (try to just very lightly step on the rudder to try this) this, thats not dampening, that is fighting!

I fly 737´s for a living (-300s and -500s), we have an autopilot mode called CWS, or controlwheelsteering. I think this is something like what Alphaonesix might be confusing with this Kamov-System when he says that the autopilot is aware of the pilot changing the parameters actively (without holding the trimbutton). Our CWS will allow you to steer the airplane with the controlwheel (hence the name) and once you let go, it will keep the plane exactly like it is (attitudewise) at that moment (within certain limits).

This KA-50 autopilot will always try to fly you back to the pitch, bank and heading you had when you released that trimmerswitch last...

So it all boils down to this:

With the trimmer released, the autopilot is actively fighting to maintain the "set" parameters, against wind, turbulence, induced yaw, etc. AND the pilot.

When the trimmerbutton is pressed, the pilot is free to maneuver the helicopter any way he likes it, without autopilot interference - and without autopilot assistance (not sure if there is "dampening assistance").

This system is just different to what most of us would be expecting, that´s where all the confusion is coming from. It´s a matter of personal preference, I guess, but if it works like that in the real KA-50 then by all means it should be implemented that way in this simulation - even if many, myself included, find it counterintuitive.

Jan

"but if it works like that in the real KA-50 then by all means it should be implemented that way in this simulation"

Amen indeed :)

I'm a real life cessna 172 pilot. Wish I could have flown more aircraft.... but thats life.

As a long time user of flightsims, I have had it with dumbed-down flight models and arcade games. I for one have longed for the day when we would have accurate flightsims! So bring it on DCS.

I'm still struggling with the trim system myself (non-FFB saitek x-45), but I love the challenge :)

Time for an official clarification about that.

Fortunately Kamov and ED were nice enough to include a feature which allows us to completely dispense with this Autopilot nonsense. It's called (erroneously) a Flight Director. Yes, it does add garbage to the HUD but that garbage clears the instant you start fighting. All hail the Flight Director!

Smokin' Hole

Original post edited to incorporate comments and suggestions from this thread.

Main changes:

Description of Stabilty Augmentation. (thanks Reticuli for your clarification)

Auto Flight Control System (AFCS) - autopilot

The Black Shark Auto Flight Control System (AFCS) description in the manual is I believe confusing and lacks sufficient detail to get a good understanding of its operation....

PRINTABLE VERSION AVAILABLE (naturally no credit taken, all credit goes to IvanK and everyone who contributed to his original post)

AFCS - DOC - DOWNLOAD PRINT

Thank You, IvanK. You have taught me how to fly this beast!

My 2000th official post on ED's forums

I too had trouble with the concept of when to trim, FD on, off, or toggled. I read about holding the trim button when moving the stick, but that just seemed like too much work. I have to say tho, that in the past 3 missions I've forced myself to hold the trim button down and keeping the FD off. 3 AP buttons on, and I've never flown easier, been able to concentrate on baddies, kept a great handle on my yaw/heading and altitude... ever!

To all those that are still unsure about what to do.. map a button on your stick to the trim and hold it when you turn, move, stop, speed up.... it's really amazing. you'll never go back to FD in normal flight mode again..( i'll admit.. I turn the FD on when I'm caught with my pants down or I need to press other buttons while moving fast )

I think the common confusion here is the a normal trim recenters the controls wherever they happen to be when you press it. It seems the ka-50 will keep whatever attitude/speed/height the ship happens to be in when you let go of the trim button. ( sort of a cruise control ).

My usual flying style is to take off, hover at 10 or so, hold the trim button, yaw to a heading, let go of the trim, press trim again and push forward until I get to my desired speed, then let go of the trim. The ship will stay at that speed/height ( providing alt hold is on ). It even acts as sort of a nap of the earth system ( not nearly as precise as an aircraft NOE system ) The helo will rise and fall as best it can to maintain whatever height you were at when last trimmed. ( you may have to augment with collective as needed..)

Then when you want to stop, simply press trim in, bottom collective some, pull back until you are at 10-12 degress and let go trim. The helo will stay at that attitude and come to a stop. I never have to step on the pedals to counter yaw as I slow, heading always stays more or less at the same point. Try it.. you'll like it..

which "3 AP buttons on" are u refering to?

the pitch, roll and heading hold AP buttons..

I normally have the alt hold on as well.. but you don't have to... I turn it off when approaching for landing or taking off...

Thanks for the clarification,

when I have do not have trim enabled, I don't have that problem with all the hold buttons blinking and the helo going crazy. :joystick:. If I do enable trim, it all goes bad.. no need to enable trim for a perfect hover.

What do you mean by "enable" trim? Trim is always enabled and cannot be turned off.

I'd recommend when people are going into a hover to sometimes turn altitude hold off until they can help stabilize the hover, especially over uneven terrain. Otherwise the two will be fighting over who gets all that conservative cross-axis 20% authority.

 

That hesitation or rubberbanding is the 20% authority of the FCS attempting to assert the Attitude Hold function (or wings leveling, in civilian aircraft...though "level" is relative to where it's been set). It does not magically switch off, as some have suggested, when you apply input. My newest GlovePIE solution for Blackshark is evidence of this. The different settings in the script between the Standard Dynamic Trim and Flight Director Dynamic Trim are incontrovertible evidence of this. You can't argue with the numbers.

 

You can certainly fly with Attitude Hold/Wings-Leveling on, with manual trim, automatic Trim Update, or neither. It's especially useful when landing. And while my Standard Dynamic Trim mode is the best method when often going in and out of hover or altitude hold, using the Flight Director (preferably with my Flight Director Dynamic Trim mode) will by far give you the most behaved and least conflicted flying experience short of using forcefeedback; the reason being you can keep all the hold channels on, but Attitude Hold is off. Instead, you get only rate-dampening...including on Head Hold. Each will attempt to get you down to zero movement in that axis when there is no input, within the 20% authority limit per axis.

 

The reason without the GlovePIE script running that you have to "hold" bank or pitch even in FD is because, 1) most helicopters have some pitch up to level in forward flight above a certain very steep down angle, 2) the Ka-50 here has an instability in pitch at ground trim causing a very strong pitch up past level, and 3) the Ka-50 here also as a slight rolling tendency to the right. That last one, the rolling to the right with Attitude Hold off (what you get in FD mode) is enough to keep you from needing to apply bank continuously to the right in a turn. If you manually trim a left bank that otherwise won’t hole in FD mode, though, you've trimmed out the right bank ability. So even in FD with the three channels on OR with all the channels turned off, you still have to trim in the bank, as well as the pitch. And of course this causes issues with accidentally trimming the yaw.

 

The optimum way is NOT to turn off the three channels, but rather running that script. Keep them all on. When NOT in Flight Director, you can choose between Manual Trim or Standard Dynamic Trim with liberal use of resetting the heading diamond (off/on Head Hold or trim) or Auto Turn to Target...especially when hovering. If you don't need any of the automated autopilot modes except the simple channel dampening, then switch your helo to Flight Director and double-click the pinkie (or whatever button you change in the script) to Flight Director Dynamic Trim. Now you get just a touch of auto-trimming in the bank, and slightly less auto-trimming in the pitch from the Standard mode. It's not totally Care-Free Maneuvering, so to speak, but it is truly a joy to fly. Strafing, climbing, and yawing around to head back down as you approach zero-speed at the top has never been so natural.

 

Not to mention Nap of the Earth and recovering from near-crashes are a snap, too. Butterfly-inducing stuff, without the Gs.

Hey reticuli, trying to figure out what works best for me, how and where can you choose between dynamic trim and manual trim and what does this mean? sorry for the idiot question !

First, you did a really great job with this tutorial. Thank you. But I believe there are two directional typos on your document for Auto Pilot.

AUTO HOVER DECENT

In the second sentance, this should read: This is done by holding the Route mode switch to its backward position. (not forward position)

AUTO TURN ON TO TARGET

The Lateral axis is for Pitch, the Longitudinal axis is for Roll, and the Vertical axis is for Yaw. Therefore, you need to change the axis that the Auto Turn utilizes to the vertical axis for yaw not the lateral axis.

This is why I avoid the use of the term "axis" when referring to helicopters. For example, pushing the cyclic to the left causes a lateral movement of the aircraft, but if you are referring to the axis, then it creates movement about the longitudinal axis, not lateral. Some would say this is nitpicking, but the hydraulic booster that rolls the aircraft left and right is called the lateral servo. The pitch servo is called the longitudinal servo (it causes longitudinal movement, even though, again, using the axis term it would be movement about the lateral axis). The other two servos are collective and yaw (or directional). So yeah, if you are stuck using the term "axis", then the pedals would be used to move the aircraft about its vertical axis.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't believe we ever got an official clarification in this thread as to whether the proper use of the trim button is to press and hold during a heading change such as at a hover. For example I have found as others have, that unless the trim is pressed durring heading changes made with rudder input, that the KA-50 autopilot will attempt to return to the original heading when the rudder is centered.

I have read posts that claim you should keep the trim held during control changes and that this behavour is normal, but I have watched the producer video notes #10 on trimming and it states that by no means is it necessary to hold down the the trim during any kind of maneuver.

Q: How does the trimmer work and how am I supposed to use it?

You may trim in either discreet presses/releases of the button or by holding the button down while you maneuver the helicopter into the desired position. Once the helicopter is stable, you can release the trim button to command the FCS to stabilize the current flight parameters. In reality, the second method is not advised or typically used by Ka-50 pilots, because holding down the trimmer button while maneuvering the helicopter can easily lead to oversteering.

I am usually the one saying to just hold down the trimmer instead of discreet presses and releases. I say this because this is what I'm used to , it's what works for me, and it is how all U.S. military pilots are trained (I am not now nor was I ever a U.S. military pilot). It's been pointed out to me that the Russians do not train this way, they train to use discreet presses and releases. I have also seen Russian-trained Afghan and Iraqi pilots do it the "Russian" way.

Personally, I would say do what works best for you. For the ultimate in realistic experience, however, you should use discreet presses and releases.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't believe we ever got an official clarification in this thread as to whether the proper use of the trim button is to press and hold during a heading change such as at a hover. For example I have found as others have, that unless the trim is pressed durring heading changes made with rudder input, that the KA-50 autopilot will attempt to return to the original heading when the rudder is centered.

 

I have read posts that claim you should keep the trim held during control changes and that this behavour is normal, but I have watched the producer video notes #10 on trimming and it states that by no means is it necessary to hold down the the trim during any kind of maneuver.

Do what feels right and what you're comfortable with. If not, you're only going to start fighting with yourself attempting to memorize an Alien procedure, never mind the Whirly-Bird.

Personally I cannot 'press and hold' - too many thumbs and not enough fingers - and strangely enough do not suffer the rudder ailment as mentioned. Just shows, there's no 'Hard and Fast' rule and nor should there be.

It's All Good!

Yup, agreed with above. I consider both methods acceptable. Use whichever works for you.

Me likes press and release as I fly Russian heli.

In Russian machine, we speak and think in Russian :D

As I said, maybe it is me, but I am trying to determine if the behaviour I am experiencing is correct. For instance lets say the helo is hovering or near hover at about 30 to 40 meters with autopilot on. I am facing approximately 30 degrees and decide to change the direction I am facing. I give easy right rudder and spin to a new heading. when I neutralize the rudder the KA-50 autopilot brings the helo back to the original heading of 30 every time. I thought the pilot input was supposed to override the autopilot. If I turn off heading hold I can change heading smoothly without fighting the autopilot, but I thought it was normally not permitted to turn off any autopilots.

I am facing approximately 30 degrees and decide to change the direction I am facing. I give easy right rudder and spin to a new heading. when I neutralize the rudder the KA-50 autopilot brings the helo back to the original heading of 30 every time.

Press the trimming button to set the new heading and the autopilot will hold this new position

I think I have finally figured it out. I think this is the most difficult and unusual aspect of learning to fly this bird as it seems so wrong at first. Thanks for your patience.