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Landing the MiG-29: Revisited


Ironhand

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Just for my own edification, I decided to revisit landing the MiG-29. I know that the general consensus is that you land it at 280-290 km/hr but that number doesn't square with references to 250-260 km/hr as the landing speed that I see in some of the MiG-29 manuals. So I was curious.

 

One manual I have gives you turn by turn reference points for a successful landing and it was interesting that, the closer you got to the actual touchdown, the more specific the information became. At the first turn you're basically told to keep an eye out for traffic in the vicinity. But, from the forth turn on down to touchdown, the details get more specific right down to the RPM setting as you're leaving the inner marker.

 

So, I thought: what the hell, let's give this a try. This is the result. On this attempt I landed smoothly at 260 km/hr (on the HUD--but probably around 268 in real numbers). This is not a tutorial per se, though I do give the required numbers (according to the manual) to hit on the way down. You'll also notice that I frequently don't quite hit them myself. Wish my flying was a bit more polished but this'll have to do for now:

 

 

 


Edited by Ironhand
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You are use hall sensor joystick? Curvature kill linear joystick movement! You use curvature = joystick not linear pitch and roll movement. Use deadzone 5 and curvature 0, no trim and create new tutorial and flying better and realistic!

 

 

Watch the noob Gream Reaper landing style, Gream Reapers use curvature!

 

 

 

 

Sorry bad english!

DCS World wishlist: Flaming Cliffs style Su 27SM and Mig 31! In game voice communication and better netcode!

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Watch the real Mig 29 pilot landing style! Linear movemant and not use trim, after landing pilot push back the joystick and break the speed and help the front wheel better breaking!

 

 

DCS World wishlist: Flaming Cliffs style Su 27SM and Mig 31! In game voice communication and better netcode!

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Really nice landing. Im really impressed with how little you used the throttle on finals. I seem to always have to put in quite a bit of power at the end to prevent the Mig29 from dropping like a stone. And if I go below 300 km/h before the threshold it usually always ends in disaster.

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... I know that the general consensus is that you land it at 280-290 km/hr but that number doesn't square with references to 250-260 km/hr as the landing speed that I see in some of the MiG-29 manuals...

 

 

 

Really interesting matter .. I had also noticed that the speeds stated on the real aircraft's manual seemed too low:

 

 

sts7YFQ.jpg

 

 

so, thank you for showing us that it is indeed possible to land as per the real plane :)

 

 

Nice airfield scenery :)

Cheers!

 

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You are use hall sensor joystick? Curvature kill linear joystick movement! You use curvature = joystick not linear pitch and roll movement. Use deadzone 5 and curvature 0, no trim and create new tutorial and flying better and realistic!...

For what it's worth, shortly after completing 99% of this video, Swartbyron asked me if I had tried flying with no axis curve. I replied that I was using a 15% curve but might give it a try. I did. I now fly the aircraft with a deadzone of 3 and 0 curvature. That didn't alter my level of control for the majority of the flight. What it did improve was my control of the final few seconds of the flight, when the stick is pulled significantly toward you. You can be less cautious in the "pull".

 

Watch the real Mig 29 pilot landing style! Linear movemant and not use trim, after landing pilot push back the joystick and break the speed and help the front wheel better breaking!

I often do pull back on the stick to raise the tailerons as an added break. In this case, I was so thrilled to have landed smoothly at less than 270 km/hr, that I forgot all about it.

 

...Im really impressed with how little you used the throttle on finals. I seem to always have to put in quite a bit of power at the end to prevent the Mig29 from dropping like a stone...

Are you over-using the stick? That's the only reason I can think of that happening. If you pull back too much too quickly, you increase your AoA sufficiently it can take a lot more power to overcome the added drag, etc. Then you find yourself ballooning up while rapidly losing speed and have to make a major changes in the opposite direction. And all of that is esoecially dangerous at slow speeds.

 

Slow and easy adjustments. Don't try to make a change all at once. Remember that you're controlling your airspeed with the stick and your sink rate with the throttle. Your goal is always to be slowly losing airspeed at a rate that lets you hit the numbers without major adjustments while maintaining the descent glide angle (descent rate) you want. You might want to take a peek at the spoiler in my response to Hunter Joker.

 

If you'd like, upload a short track somewhere that I can take a look at. Then we can figure out where the issue it.

 

Hi, nice landing but I feel that for me You go a bit to low to flare then in the final to catch up some quota and loose some speed....

I go different, preferring to slow during a smooth slope...

Here I touch at 260kmh never going under the slope path...and with some lateral wind...

I first ran across your video about a month ago. Nicely done, BTW. Typically, I use the DCS glide slope and come up with somewhat similar results. I'm normally touching done somewhere between 271 and 278 km/hr. In your video, if I'm doing the knot to km/hr conversion right, your main wheels actually touch at somewhere between 270-272 (146-147 kts). Even if I'm wrong, my interest here was to fly the route described in the manual which, among other things, keeps you under the DCS glide slope until the very end. And I screwed the manual's route up a bit...even more than a bit from time to time.

 

My flare was at the correct (per the manual) altitude. It was my aim point that was way off. I thought I was close but, evidently, have worse distance judgement in the sim than I knew. Turns out I was about 270 meters from the runway at 10 m altitude rather than the 50-70 m I should have been. :)

 

 

From: Pilot Technique and Aerial Navigation for the MiG-29 Aircraft (2nd edition, revised and supplemented)

 

 

During the descent glide after the fourth turn, the view from the cockpit should be good, the landing strip can be seen during all segments of the approach and landing.

 

During the descent, ensure that the runway is clear and, subsequently, the main focus of attention should be the given to maintaining the prescribed glide path, rate of descent, and visually monitoring the position of the aircraft relative to the runway.

 

In the case of a first (maiden) flight or to monitor the descent glide path over the outer marker, you can use the HSI glide path lines in which case you must actively select LANDING mode prior to the fourth turn.

 

Maintaining a particular descent rate is achieved through small (1…2%) movements of the throttle as the aircraft changes speed almost without delay which is accompanied by minor changes in pressure applied to the flight stick while maintaining a constant angle of descent.

 

If there is no crosswind, use a slight bank of 5…10° to refine the direction of your landing. Pass the inner marker (BRDM-short-range radio beacon) at an altitude of 50-60 m with a speed of 310…300 km/h. After passing the inner marker, refine your descent on the glide path so that the aircraft descends to a point 50…70 m short of the runway.

 

If following the standard glide path, after passing the innder marker (BPRM), proper speed reduction is achieved by setting the engine RPM to 77…79%. In this situation, the speed at the beginning of leveling off must be within the limits of 290…280 km/h.

 

1.2.6. The Landing

 

At the height of 30...20 m ensure the accuracy of the calculations, check your speed and look at the ground to the left forward and in the direction of the aircraft’s landing.

 

From a height of 10 ... 8 m (depending on the vertical rate of descent) begin leveling off, reducing the descent glide angle so as to bring the plane to the ground (stop the descent) at a height of o.8 ... 0.5 m. With a further reduction of speed bringing the plane to the ground, it is right to move the throttle to the IDLE position. Commensurate with the approach of the aircraft to the runway moving (pulling) the control stick toward yourself will place the aircraft in landing position. The movement of the control stick in the process of leveling is significant: from neutral to almost completely "into yourself."

The aircraft will land softly at a speed of 260...250 km/h with a landing angle of attack of about 11°.

 

 

 

 

Really interesting matter .. I had also noticed that the speeds stated on the real aircraft's manual seemed too low:

 

 

sts7YFQ.jpg

 

 

so, thank you for showing us that it is indeed possible to land as per the real plane :)

 

 

Nice airfield scenery :)

Cheers!

:) Recognize the scenery, do you? Thanks for making the templates available. Makes it so much easier to dress up the airfields.

 

The only number there that gives me a bit of pause in that diagram is the 325 on base. At least the Russian manual doesn't agree with it. And it gives me pause because, if you have to bank steeply for some reason on turn 4, that bank becomes much riskier. That 315 on final is sort of the average speed down the slope.

 

I haven't had much opportunity to fly since producing the video but, in the few landings I've made with no pitch curve, I've been able to hit the 250 number. The only hitch is that, at that airspeed, your AoA climbs to around 13°. Luckily, my pitch was at 10° so nothing bad happened.

 

Thanks for that Ironhand.

Very well done! :thumbup:

Thank you. And thank you for the no pitch curve suggestion.


Edited by Ironhand

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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If ED does not correct longitudinal stability MiG 29, the number of destroyed Fulcrum during landing will be greater than the number destroyed in combat.

 

The stability isn't the problem, your approach is, or did you not watch the video? Loooots of people are landing the MiG successfully just fine. I crashed the first time, I landed hard the next two or three, I land gently everytime now. Key = practice. It's not the same as other aircraft. Don't fly it like it is and you won't have a problem.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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Of course, training is necessary and here is a video clip and a trk file of several school laps with landings that I perform according to the original instructions used by the Serbian Air Force (attached file) with 75% of the fuel and settings as in the pictures. When landing with the MIG 21, landing on the carrier with F18 and Su 33, as well as other DCS aircraft, I have no problems that you see on the video and which I have when landing with Fulcrum.

 

 

 

Sorry for my bad "GООGLЕ" English

29 PFM landing snow.trk

JOY_Y.thumb.png.23d829e86467a2bf10ae7bb836abcd17.png

JOY_SLIDER.thumb.png.3d28d84e21194e87fd1ba368f2b63643.png


Edited by NineLine
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If ED does not correct longitudinal stability MiG 29, the number of destroyed Fulcrum during landing will be greater than the number destroyed in combat.

 

 

I've found that it just requires a bit more practice, but it's perfectly possible to land her smooth enough:

 

 

nbpWoMEE_UA

 

 

:)

 

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yufighter said:
Of course, training is necessary and here is a video clip and a trk file of several school laps with landings that I perform according to the original instructions used by the Serbian Air Force (attached file) with 75% of the fuel and settings as in the pictures. When landing with the MIG 21, landing on the carrier with F18 and Su 33, as well as other DCS aircraft, I have no problems that you see on the video and which I have when landing with Fulcrum.

...

I don't know if you'll ever read this but I'm going to post it in case it might help some others experiencing similar issues. I was finally able to view the track after watching the video several times. My impressions of the video were born out in the track. Yes, practice is necessary. There's a saying that: Practice makes perfect. Unfortunately it's not true. Only perfect practice makes perfect. The quality of the landing will only be as good as the quality of the practice. And you were not following the manual you referenced.

 

I don't read Serbian but I recognize both the target altitudes and airspeeds as well as the paragraphing itself. So I know what it says because I have the Russian copy. Yes, you more or less hit the targets for the inner and outer markers but how you got there bore no relation to the text that you provided (now deleted presumably by the moderators). There's a reason it states that you lower your landing gear and flaps on the downwind leg before turns 3 and 4. That gives you time to trim and adjust to the aircraft's handling as you gradually lose speed. The MiG-29 has a twitchy nose. Performing those tasks just before the outer marker when you want to be commanding a reliably stable aircraft almost guarantees that you'll have difficulties.

 

The text you referenced also has a sentence that states that you should only need to make small throttle adjustments once settled on the glideslope--1 to 2%. For the most part that wasn't happening for you, possibly because you were fighting the trim changes caused by lowering the landing gear and flaps so late. But for whatever reason, at a time when your throttle and stick work needed to be refined and controlled, it wasn't.

 

Another note. Like most people, myself included until recently, you are leveling out at too high an altitude. The text you quoted states that you begin leveling off at 8-10 meters above the ground with an airspeed of 280-290 km/hr completing the proceedure at less than a meter (.6 - .8 ) above the ground. From there, you descend softly to the landing at 250-260 km/hr. If you level out at a higher altitude, you can seldom hit that 250-260 smoothly. You normally have two options--a hard, back-compressing landing that sends you to the flight surgeon or a landing at a faster airspeed.

 

Here's a quick video. My wife graciously granted me a few minutes away from our holiday preparations so that I could fly your track. So the particulars of the flight setup were identical. This is the 2nd landing. I botched the first because I didn't notice that your gear and flaps weren't lowered when I took over. So I did what you were doing and lowered them late (after passing the outer marker, if I remember correctly) and had some of the same issues you were encountering. I should have called a missed approach as you should have done. Anyway, I performed the "touch and go" and went around for the 2nd approach.

 

 

Here's a recording of the that second landing--I only had time for the two. Once you are on that glide slope, smooth and controlled use of the stick and throttle are required, especially after crossing the inner marker. The video picks up after turn 3, while I'm on my way to turn 4 which is supposed to initiated using a 30° bank and adjusted if necessary. The video quality isn't the best but, hopefully, it'll do. Take note of the touchdown speed.

 

 

 


Edited by Ironhand
Get rid of an inadvertent smilie.

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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Thank you IRONHAND for taking the time to analyze my video and * .trk file. I do not understand why you think my text will be removed? However, moderators decide on this. For a long time, I lived near the air base and saw that they were holding school circuits in the landing configuration on training. That's what I did here. You did not notice that the dormant trap and flaps were drawn only once, 10km from the runway, during the whole flight. A complete flight, all seven landings, has no configuration change, so I have not lost the time for these operations.

Nothing I do, so even the trainings are not perfect. Nothing perfectly exists. I'm trying to follow the instructions and actions of professionals like this video

The Show Controls indicator in your and my video clips I doubt that the quality of my joystick is one of the reasons for maintaining the longitudinal stability that makes me trouble.:joystick:

 

Sorry about the bad GOOGLE English:)

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Thank you IRONHAND for taking the time to analyze my video and * .trk file. I do not understand why you think my text will be removed? However, moderators decide on this. For a long time, I lived near the air base and saw that they were holding school circuits in the landing configuration on training. That's what I did here. You did not notice that the dormant trap and flaps were drawn only once, 10km from the runway, during the whole flight. A complete flight, all seven landings, has no configuration change, so I have not lost the time for these operations.

Nothing I do, so even the trainings are not perfect. Nothing perfectly exists. I'm trying to follow the instructions and actions of professionals like this video

The Show Controls indicator in your and my video clips I doubt that the quality of my joystick is one of the reasons for maintaining the longitudinal stability that makes me trouble.:joystick:

 

Sorry about the bad GOOGLE English:)

Ahhh... I apologize. I was fast forwarding between landings after the first landing and missed the fact that you had left the landing gear and flaps down. I had little time to watch the track and, so, rushed my viewing. Your control stick would explain a lot. In fact, when I first stated viewing your track, I was so disturbed by what I was seeing that I stopped watching it. I opened it in the Mission Editor to see if you had created the mission with wind and turbulence. I was surprised that there wasn't any. Wish I lived close to you. I'd give you my stick and throttle to try out for a day.

 

You actually had two or three landings that should have been close to perfect except that you pitched up too much at a critical time. I fly now with a dead zone of 3 and no curve for the pitch axis. Give that a try. It solved that issue for me, especially for the critical time just before landing.

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Watch the real Mig 29 pilot landing style! Linear movemant and not use trim, after landing pilot push back the joystick and break the speed and help the front wheel better breaking!

 

 

 

 

 

In this video with real pilot is 290km/h ?

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You're mistaken, the stabilizer trim signal lamp is off. So the trimer is used and in both cases it is a landing according to the instructions.

It is interesting that the power is 80% at the very edge of the runway and in the approach.


Edited by yufighter
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