Damage model

I've flown a lot of single player and I don't remember ever surviving a missile hit from the AI.

I've flown a lot of single player and I don't remember ever surviving a missile hit from the AI.

I always survive first R-60M hit in "Missile Combat" quick mission

and in multiplayer I survive 70% of first PvP hits

once I got hit twice by R-73 in a dogfight (second one wasn't really a hit, I must admit, it blew up pretty close to me) and then the Su-27 ran out of missiles. My mirage was smoking like a steam locomotive, I've lost my radar, turned around for RTB, but then the Sukhoi tried to get me with gunz ... I guess the pilot wasn't skilled enough - each time I released airbrakes he ran infront of me and I had chances for Magic attack ... he managed to dodge both magics, popping flares hard, but I downed him with my cannon. Even managed to perform an emergency landing on a alternate airfield (I also had a fuel leak)

I always survive first R-60M hit in "Missile Combat" quick mission

 

and in multiplayer I survive 70% of first PvP hits

 

once I got hit twice by R-73 in a dogfight (second one wasn't really a hit, I must admit, it blew up pretty close to me) and then the Su-27 ran out of missiles. My mirage was smoking like a steam locomotive, I've lost my radar, turned around for RTB, but then the Sukhoi tried to get me with gunz ... I guess the pilot wasn't skilled enough - each time I released airbrakes he ran infront of me and I had chances for Magic attack ... he managed to dodge both magics, popping flares hard, but I downed him with my cannon. Even managed to perform an emergency landing on a alternate airfield (I also had a fuel leak)

I am getting a really strong feeling something with the netcode is just wrong. A lot of people are reporting terrible DM state, a lot of people say its fine.

Thing is I would do testing. But people are immune to numbers nowadays so I can just scratch that Idea right away. RIP.

Yep razbam M2000 is a flying tank since the begining....

I remember a flight in Nevada in very low altitude. I don't remember if it was manpad or a/a fox2, but two missiles hit my six and engine still runing fine...

The only things that take damage everytime is the nose... I stop counting number of times I lost my nose (radar so) and everything else goes fine in the aircraft.

 

and in multiplayer I survive 70% of first PvP hits

 

? Really, for a couple of months at least now I survive about 15% of first hits with over half of those making me combat ineffective.

I have noticed if I aggressively defend against a missile launch I have a considerably better chance at surviving a missile hit, where as if I am hit by a missile I didn't see coming or I dont try to defend aggressively when I get hit I am dead.

I think we are seeing a more complex DM with the Mirage vs. the 27 and 15 (the 29 needs several missiles to bring down sometimes) and the question should be is the DM of the 15 and 27 the issue?

JD

AKA_MattE

? Really, for a couple of months at least now I survive about 15% of first hits with over half of those making me combat ineffective.

 

I have noticed if I aggressively defend against a missile launch I have a considerably better chance at surviving a missile hit, where as if I am hit by a missile I didn't see coming or I dont try to defend aggressively when I get hit I am dead.

 

I think we are seeing a more complex DM with the Mirage vs. the 27 and 15 (the 29 needs several missiles to bring down sometimes) and the question should be is the DM of the 15 and 27 the issue?

 

JD

AKA_MattE

It looks like a matter of "miss distance" Vs "direct hit", and it makes sense.

I have noticed if I aggressively defend against a missile launch I have a considerably better chance at surviving a missile hit, where as if I am hit by a missile I didn't see coming or I dont try to defend aggressively when I get hit I am dead

totally agree with this

I've been playing on a single server for quite a while (TAW - The Kaukasus Offensive) - so I managed to learn the mission very well, my situational awareness is at the highest level possible for a virtual pilot like me (not having a TrackIR), so I always know where it's coming from and always defend against any launch

Well. IRL planes dont exploade magically at the moment they get hit by anything...

FCS/Hydro fails, wait 5s for the accumulators to empty, than wait 1-3s to realise he's moving straight only. So yeah, wait...

 

Besides, the mirage's nose is OP, in the sense than it will take all the damage, blocking it for the rest of the plane. This is something that is present in all plane to some extent, just more on the M2K.

That's the only problem with it.

no just all those tons of highly flamable fuel turns into pixie dust magically.

I've had people get totally nuts because they couldn't kill me. Start calling me names even, LOL.

I don't think the Mirage is so unrealistic when it comes to damage, not in the last versions.

I've had some of the most interesting/fun and hard to handle failures after being hit by a missile, and to me it seemed the damage model here is more complex than in other modules.

A direct hit always makes me blow up. But if I maneuver and the missile explodes further away, then I get damaged. It seems fair.

no just all those tons of highly flamable fuel turns into pixie dust magically.

modern jets may have self-sealing tanks to prevent as good as possible any fire

modern jets may have self-sealing tanks to prevent as good as possible any fire

Seems like you are not quite aware of missiles destruction power.

Or you just seek informations and knowlage in hollywood movies.

Or you just seek informations and knowlage in hollywood movies.

LOL, troll spotted.

Seems like you missunderstood what I was trying to say. Don't know if you lack intelligence or your vocabulary is narrow. I don't make assumptions like modern aircraft may have self sealing tanks. As far as I know some have only rubber coating inside and thats only there for small arms and this is varified and told to me from various millitary aviators. If you expect that to seal a hole size of an football ball I think you have serious issues regarding your logic. So pls I'm not trying to insult you but coming out with this comments is realy stupid. Its clear as day that there are problems with mirages damage model not to mention flight model too. And here you two are trying to make an idiot out of me. Why? Is it so hard to belive that little light fragile aircraft can't withstand such destruction. I would say ok if those were hits of the missiles which exploded near but they were all straight direct hits. And this keeps happening everytime I play. Yey yes there are some times when they die instantly but then again this isn't fair. Its simply not fair to be able to do this...

Seems like you missunderstood what I was trying to say. Don't know if you lack intelligence or your vocabulary is narrow. I don't make assumptions like modern aircraft may have self sealing tanks. As far as I know some have only rubber coating inside and thats only there for small arms and this is varified and told to me from various millitary aviators. If you expect that to seal a hole size of an football ball I think you have serious issues regarding your logic. So pls I'm not trying to insult you but coming out with this comments is realy stupid. Its clear as day that there are problems with mirages damage model not to mention flight model too. And here you two are trying to make an idiot out of me. Why? Is it so hard to belive that little light fragile aircraft can't withstand such destruction. I would say ok if those were hits of the missiles which exploded near but they were all straight direct hits. And this keeps happening everytime I play. Yey yes there are some times when they die instantly but then again this isn't fair. Its simply not fair to be able to do this...

I wont quote Einstein on whos fault it is if some explanation gets misunderstood.

I'm starting to think Eaglefox might be the guy that called me names on the 104th for not dying as he thinks I should? :D

Just speculating at this point :)

Man that was epic, this guy is flying an F-15, I just killed a couple of other people with the 530D and was trying to escape down low. The F-15 spots me and starts to chase me, he drops an AIM-9 on me from pretty far and he misses, then another one, I pop all the flares I have on board and slice hard left, the missile explodes behind me but I'm damaged. I lose radar, FBW, Hud, afterburner and can't fly stratight for s*it!

The F-15 closes in for a gun kill, I see him approaching very fast straight from my 6, so I pop the speedbrakes and the mirage slows down so quickly that he passes in front of me, even if he deployed his gigantic airbrake. We're slow at this point, he's passing over my canopy, very close, and pulling up in full AB. I go full throttle and use the little airspeed I have left (and the great nose authority) to pull up and shoot him with the guns just before stalling.

The guy starts to go nuts and calling me names on chat, LOL! We all had a laugh.

Shortly after another F-15 shot my broken mirage out of the sky with a direct hit.

Right or wrong, it was great fun.

I'm starting to think Eaglefox might be the guy that called me names on the 104th for not dying as he thinks I should? :D

Just speculating at this point :)

 

Man that was epic, this guy is flying an F-15, I just killed a couple of other people with the 530D and was trying to escape down low. The F-15 spots me and starts to chase me, he drops an AIM-9 on me from pretty far and he misses, then another one, I pop all the flares I have on board and slice hard left, the missile explodes behind me but I'm damaged. I lose radar, FBW, Hud, afterburner and can't fly stratight for s*it!

 

The F-15 closes in for a gun kill, I see him approaching very fast straight from my 6, so I pop the speedbrakes and the mirage slows down so quickly that he passes in front of me, even if he deployed his gigantic airbrake. We're slow at this point, he's passing over my canopy, very close, and pulling up in full AB. I go full throttle and use the little airspeed I have left (and the great nose authority) to pull up and shoot him with the guns just before stalling.

 

The guy starts to go nuts and calling me names on chat, LOL! We all had a laugh.

Shortly after another F-15 shot my broken mirage out of the sky with a direct hit.

 

Right or wrong, it was great fun.

I don't play mp with this name :/

I still doesn't have any proof that a 2000 in game can get a direct hit without major damage neither if a real 2000 is 100% destroyed every time a missile hit it.

Or you just seek informations and knowlage in hollywood movies.

See ?

Don't know if you lack intelligence or your vocabulary is narrow.

That is not nice. Please don't assume that on me or any other.

Yey yes there are some times when they die instantly but then again this isn't fair. Its simply not fair to be able to do this...

This game is not fair, because war isn't.

Seems like you are not quite aware of missiles destruction power.

Or you just seek informations and knowlage in hollywood movies.

I definitly get the destruction capabilitys of a missile not from movies

allthough close missiles can do a lot of damage, it can make a large hole or even a line of destuction in the frame of a plane, but missiles which is at the maximum fuze working distance, might not have a lot of energy for the rods to do a lot of damage, and also, just because a missile is exploding to set off it's rods, and those rods may generate a lot of heat with friction or so, it's not a guarantee that the fuel is getting ignited, or that doesn't mean the rods are getting close to the fuel tanks.

also, i have only fought against a mirage with the eagle with guns only, i didn't had much troubles there downing one (AI controlled), but what i've seen in some videos, i get the thinking of a unrealistic damage model, and i have to say, not every missile will hit needed things or electronic. I mean, surviving a missile hit is possible with probably a lot of aircrafts, but like one time the F-15 ripping it's wing off, i think that might cause more trouble that dissabling radar, iff, some hydraulics, maybe chute and some other parts, and also we have a lot of examples in history, that even critical damage may not be enough to down airplanes, like bombs in civilian aircraft or any other situation, where they just had a lot of luck.

And all in all, we do not have any information, except maybe the A-10, how strong an aircraft is and what it's percentage of surviving a missile hit is, also there are a lot of factors to it...

No fighter should survive a direct hit from an AIM-120 and expect the M-2000 none of them in DCS do, that's just a fact...

No fighter should survive a direct hit from an AIM-120 and expect the M-2000 none of them in DCS do, that's just a fact...

No Fighter should survive a direct hit from any of the most modern missiles I would say. That being said I don't think anyone (except ED) can say with certainty when a direct hit happens. This becomes even more pronounced in MP, since what you see and what was recorded by the server could easily be off.

JD

AKA_MattE

No Fighter should survive a direct hit from any of the most modern missiles I would say. That being said I don't think anyone (except ED) can say with certainty when a direct hit happens. This becomes even more pronounced in MP, since what you see and what was recorded by the server could easily be off.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

+1

We already saw tracks and video from missiles going through planes without detonating (R-27 through Mirage or Super 530D through Su 27)

Tracks and video of MP aren't necessarily proof of anything that's wrong with missiles though.

There are more than a couple of issues at hand:

There's MP, which can 'show' you something that doesn't look right. And indeed, if you were to merge both tracks (or tacviews from both tracks), you will see serious divergence, IMHO, especially in those situations.

There is the fact that there's no frag damage simulation either, as well as very, very simple fuze simulation, but those on their own might not be a huge issue either.

As for surviving modern missiles:

We know that a direct hit by sidewinder can be survived by an F-15. Maybe. Depends on where exactly it hits. Chances aren't good though, and you wouldn't be very combat effective.

Regarding bkthunder's very amusing story, I think CptSmiley fixed the retro-thrust air brake issue ;)

Why is it then that every F-15/Su-27 that I hit goes down with one missile but only the M-2000 doesn't. It's clearly not netcode related, it only happens to the mirage.

It's may or may not be simple. All missiles trigger on their fuze, and the fuze is a simple 'distance from this point' calculation.

If this point is in a position that's not so good to begin with, netcode could put it even more out-of-place.

A smaller aircraft may have the advantage of not taking as much damage from the missile's blast since it could be just far enough away to reduce the damage by 1-2 points.

That's just speculation of course, much of it may have to do with tuning of the DM as well - my point is that it isn't necessarily a single factor.

Why is it then that every F-15/Su-27 that I hit goes down with one missile but only the M-2000 doesn't. It's clearly not netcode related, it only happens to the mirage.

Fair enough, either way I don't understand why RAZBAM doesn't comment on this very obvious bug. There have been multiple threads about this in the past, none of which got addressed. I just don't get what is so hard about saying when RAZBAM will adress this...

Edit: Even more so because Zeus is actively replying in other threads, looks like straight ignoring issues for me to be honest.