Red Flag Rumble - Mig21 vs F5

Thanks for running these tests. I appreciate the perspective from both sides. I'm really hoping the MiG doesn't end up with bugged missiles that won't work. I had plenty of problems with the R60Ms on the Tiger v Fishbed server a few weeks back, and that's just flat out frustrating.

 

What's the performance of the R13M1 vs. the R13M?

 

I'll see if I can get some bombing tests done with the F5 this weekend. Will try both standard and drag versions vs. T55s and T72s.

 

I haven't even touched the cluster munitions, but I assume they're like the SU-25T dispensers (totally useless)? If I have time, I'll give those a run as well.

I see no difference between R-13M and R-13M1.

Maybe heat signature playing role here aswell, that is my next thing to check. Currently we tried to check different regimes:

AIM-9P5 has tone on MiG-21 with military power and ofcourse on afterburner from up to ~8 Km distance, effective range on speeds ~ 1000 Km/h starting from 3.2-3.5 KM rear aspect.

R-13M has tone on F-5: 1) with afterburner from up to 6-7 KM 2) without afterburner on military power from 2.2 KM! Giving into account that F-5 has two engines I dunno if its legit or not.. But that one sure will not be fixed soon even if its not legit.

Effective range of R-13M on speeds ~ 1000 KM/h starting from ~2.1 KM rear aspect.

Clusters in DCS has effect but its a matter of amount of bomblets per square meter. Angle and altitude of unguided cluster bomb matters aswell. Without CCRP it is hard to drop them effectively, although if you want to kill at least one target and you can't pinpoint bomb drop then maybe they will be handy. A-10s clusters works because their bomblets are guided..

In your tests, does the R-13M1 performs better than the R60M?

That is good question cuz R-13M in MiG-21 actually perform same as R-60M.

Ok I did missiles test.

Experiment was done on stable version 1.5. Target was F-15C traveling 800 KPH (no AB) at 4000 meters altitude, going straight no react to threat. Missiles were launched rear aspect.

=====================

AIM-9P - 9.5 KM tone

AIM-9P5 - 19.1 KM tone

R-13M - 5.7 KM tone

LN R-60M - 5.7 KM tone

ED R-60M - 9.5 KM tone

=====================

AIM-9P - 6.2 KM range

AIM-9P5 - 6.2 KM range (ALL ASPECT)

R-13М - 4.7 KM range (LIMITED ALL ASPECT)

LN R-60M - 4.5 KM range (ALL ASPECT)

ED R-60m - 4.5 KM range (ALL ASPECT)

R-3R - 4-4.3 KM range (ALL ASPECT)

=====================

tone - range from which I start to hear tone

range - maximum range from which missile can still hit target

Numbers here taken for certain experiment situation, they will change regarding to different parameters (altitude, speed, etc.)

So don't take numbers into account but instead bear in mind that all those missiles tested in exact same conditions (or really close conditions).

Just compare them and take percents to have an idea

Basically R-60M in MiG-21 is not the same as R-60M on ED planes. LN R-60M has 2 times weaker seeker head.

Also I think R-13M traveling distance should be almost same as AIM-9P but not 2 times less.. But it is subject to research..

===========================================

Tone MiG-21 vs F-5

R-13M and R-60M - 2.6 KM on F-5 no AB (800 KPH)

AIM-9P5 - 8.9 KM on F-5 no AB (800 KPH)

AIM-9P - 4.4 KM on F-5 no AB (800 KPH)

R-13M and R-60M - 3.8 KM on MiG-21 no AB (800 KPH)

AIM-9P5 - 12.9 KM on MiG-21 no AB (800 KPH)

AIM-9P - 6.4 KM on MiG-21 no AB (800 KPH)

Those R60M and R13M numbers are atrocious. Maybe I wasn't having "the R60M bug," but rather, I just wasn't in the spitting distance required to actually get tone.

 

Are missiles in Nevada behaving the same way? I'm sure model and specs are the same, but is there anything in the 2.0 architecture that could alleviate the issues? I can't imagine those values reflect reality relative to the P5.

I contacted Chizh and we got through this, so far its pointing out that LN R-13M is underperforming so as LN R-60M has lower detect range than R-60M by ED...

regarding R-13M we need more info, So far I see that R-13M max range was 15 KM but it doesn't say with which conditions.

I'm also interested in the A2G capabilities. Just did some testing with F5, and the HEAT rockets can kill a tank if you get a bunch of direct hits.

 

Bombs are almost worthless because they require direct hits to do appreciable damage.

CBU-52s are a complete waste of time.

M117s had some splash (not significant enough to matter)

 

It looks like rockets and guns will be the weapon of choice for Blue side for all ground units. Not sure anything could be done to make bombs worth it.

 

I'll probably play around with some MiG21 A/G ordnance this weekend, but probably the same deal - bombs pointless, rockets best to use.

It is matters which tank you trying to bomb! T-55 has less armor and more prone to be killed by bomb than more advanced tanks..

For clusters you need to dive in specific angle and use more than one at the same time for sure to kill at least something.

Solid way for F-5 is snakeeyes, F-5 Can carry 5 snake eyes on centerline pylon. Because it is centerline pylon you don't need to adjust left or right. You just drop all five in a ripple above target. From second attempt I was able to soar above column of 4 T-55s and kill two of them with that ripple drop. Although its dangerous cuz you want to go lower to drop dem snakeeyes more precisely..

I'm also interested in the A2G capabilities. Just did some testing with F5, and the HEAT rockets can kill a tank if you get a bunch of direct hits.

 

Bombs are almost worthless because they require direct hits to do appreciable damage.

CBU-52s are a complete waste of time.

M117s had some splash (not significant enough to matter)

 

It looks like rockets and guns will be the weapon of choice for Blue side for all ground units. Not sure anything could be done to make bombs worth it.

 

I'll probably play around with some MiG21 A/G ordnance this weekend, but probably the same deal - bombs pointless, rockets best to use.

You can negate bombs inaccuracy by number of bombs.

F-5 has more pylons for ground weapons than MiG-21 does, therefore you can just use big number of bombs.

Here is an example of F-5 bomb train (imagine three F-5s will bomb that place in same time!):

Here is example of snake eyes employment (again imagine several F-5s in trail formation doing this!):

For me personally F-5 has more potential in bombing, even if you just take number and type of bombs it can carry. IOfcourse I will check MiG-21 aswell.

I still thinking that the DCS F-5E model is far from reality, it's not visible above 800 meters away (just a pixel). IRL I can see the F-5 about 3 miles or more far. Watch the video.

What do you mean by "model" ?

Also video is hard to watch YT says its 1080P but resolution is really low...

If you want to do informative video engage labels and switch them off and on again while test is going labels will give distance.

I don't think it is tied to specific aircraft, all planes in DCS has same LOD ranges from my experience...

Is not exactly as you say, it depends of the game's designer and the quantity of objects, decals and textures he implemented in the aircraft design, if you recall, in the first days of the MIG-21bis the game took a while uploading the model, and was that leatherneck design had an extreme quality and too much objects and decals, they had to reduce later the amount to make the aircraft flyable, in the same way when you design an aircraft there are objects that are rendering for different distances and another not, this happens from the client side of the game (the graphic engine), making the game to render only the decals or objects neccesary in base of the distance.

 

This second video is full 1080p, with full zoom in the game, the only thing you will see of the F_5 is a smoke trail in the distance one moment and nothing else until he is very close to you.

Well what I say is how it is work in DCS fro mwhat I know. There is special config file which has settings for LOD for every aircraft, level of details depends on distance.

Also here is my take in nevada, this is 1080P aswell and it is a lot more sharp so you can see F-5 from up to 15 KM, it is distinctive black dot (consist from number of pixels) in the sky, distance is also there when I switch label on.

My vedio settings:

in this case you didnt know where the enemy was until you enabled the labels, that gaves you a clue of where was, one pixel in the middle of the HUD dirt is not visible at all, even with labels, try to find him over terrain! Most of F-5 players now this "feature", and always fly close to deck where they are invisible not only for the eye but for the mig-21 radar. Test this, fly in the Fishbed vs Tiger server with a MIG-21 (both sides have EWR), and try to shot down the guys flying F-5E there, you will see the roster, are many to few kills favorable to F-5

I fly MiG-21 from the day of release I know the tatistics for F-5 kills. I can find them fine from far distance if they have sky background behind them.

I see no big difference between MiG-21 or F-5 or even Su-27. When I fly on ACG server I just see two dots at the same time, when I getting close I see its MiG-21 chasing F-5 or vise versa...

Of course you will lost aircraft against the ground, especially if its cammo fitting right. But its not about F-5 at all IMHO