Reverb owners - it's impossible to get rid of ghosting and have high resolution

Hey guys

 

There's a heck of a lot of FUD on here about getting rid of ghosting/stuttering while using the Reverb. To be blunt, after weeks of testing, I've discovered it's impossible to remove this with today's top hardware (I run a 5GHz i9 with GTX 2080 Ti). While some might claim they don't see ghosting, they're simply unfamiliar with the phenomenon, or don't fly fast-jets (slow moving aircraft are less prone to it, such as choppers or prop-planes, as they don't update the scenery/objects as quickly, and thus reprojection looks better).

 

The only way to remove this is to run at the Reverb's native refresh rate of 60HZ or 90Hz (and thus 60fps or 90fps), depending on what refresh rate you set in the WMR software. From what I can see, this framerate is currently impossible with the DCS engine in its current iteration unless you run at a very low resolution, and thus have a horribly pixelated image.

 

I hate being the bearer of bad news, but this is something people need to be aware of if they're spending US$600 or more on a Reverb. Personally, I'm not sure if I'm going to continue to use the Reverb and live with the ghosting, as the rest of the VR experience is so damn good, or switch back to my ultrawide 3440 x 1440 display - even this is problematic, as it's a 144Hz display and thus causes massive stuttering issues with TrackIR.

 

Here's hoping ED can make huge improvements with DCS in VR. I'm not betting on it though, as they harped on about multithreading/multi-core CPU improvements for at least a decade and still haven't implemented it well.

Edited November 8, 2019 by GunSlingerAUS

I've recently gotten back into another game (ED) that has high fidelity flight models, lots of other computational complexity, and fast moving objects, and has the same or more graphics configurable objects, and I have seen no ghosting on my hardware. And yet, I get ghosting in DCS every dog flight. I think this is all DCS and not the current hardware or middleware issues.

I've recently gotten back into another game (ED) that has high fidelity flight models, lots of other computational complexity, and fast moving objects, and has the same or more graphics configurable objects, and I have seen no ghosting on my hardware. And yet, I get ghosting in DCS every dog flight. I think this is all DCS and not the current hardware or middleware issues.

 

I don't run that , but from what i have seen on YouTube , it has nowhere near the graphical complexity that DCS does . Nor when speaking of flight models , is aerodynamics a factor .

Edited November 8, 2019 by Svsmokey

I hate being the bearer of bad news, but this is something people need to be aware of if they're spending US$600 or more on a Reverb.

 

That's just the state of the current hardware and VR tech, not limited to the Reverb; that's a side effect with all HMDs that I've tried - Oculus CV1, Samsung Odyssey+, and HP Reverb.

 

However, with Reverb's native resolution being the highest of the bunch, there's no need to dial in Steam VR's Super Sampling as high as you would have with the other two, so there's far less ghosting for me than before using less SS.

 

Oh, and the clarity the Reverb provides speaks for itself. So my Reverb is here to stay. :thumbup:

I’ve learnt to live with the ghosting with my Reverb, there is so many other things to concentrate on with DCS, there’s too much fun to be had elsewhere. Maybe one day everything will be perfected but it seems unlikely.

@SVsmokey - not sure I agree. I think the flight computations are CPU based. GPU should just be pushing pixels, and I can say that both push my 2080ti card the same.

Well, what can I say? I posted all of the settings I am using for my Reverb which results in very rare ghosting. If you choose to go higher than those settings that I posted for all to see, right on this very forum, in the interest of full disclosure, then you're going to have problems.

 

Ghosting is the problem that showed up so badly on my Reverb in the beginning that I almost returned it out of frustration with the performance. Then I discovered that the 188% SS thing we were all told in the beginning is a lie.

 

Mine works just fine, with rare ghosting in dense areas, with the settings I am using. If you use higher settings than that, its not a direct comparison, and obviously you're not going to get the same results. Let's try comparing apples to apples before we start accusing each other of spreading FUD. :D

No Ghosting and almost everywhere stable 45FPS with Motion Reprojection here. So it is not a Reverb,2080Ti/i9 5Ghz or DCS Beta Problem.

 

I'm 80% Simracer and 20% Flightsimer,but DCS runs so good and Smooth with the Reverb, that i already have 100 Hours DCS and only 2 Hours Simracing Use, since i have the Reverb running.

 

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Yes,this comes from the different Settings and Hardware. If you run a 1070,forget it. If you have a older CPU?Nope! You should go for a Rift S or a Vive Pro.

 

But saying, The Reverb is a tiny bit better than the previous Generation, is quite a Joke.

 

 

 

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I agree Aurelius, we all have different expectations/standards or what not (other words I can’t think of now.)

 

I think I set my expectations too high and was thus a little disappointed, but having been strictly vr in dcs and starting with the cv1 a) I have not had to compare the image to a 4K screen b) have learnt the art of compromise which seems essential when it comes to this vr stuff.

Overall though far from perfect I personally find the pros of vr outweigh the cons.

 

As you said it’s not going to necessarily be the same experience for one person as it is another, life would be pretty dull if we were all the same. Also those YouTube folks do love to over egg the pudding a bit.

 

Eaglecrash your help and info is most definitely very much appreciated:)

Like others there is such a little ghosting I hardly notice anymore

 

I’ve had my reverb v2, going on 3 weeks now and just about have the settings tweaked...2200x2156...100% steam...it recommended 112%...100 is better for me anyway

R5 2600, 32 ram 2933, 2070 super, m.2 one gig, 750 watt ps

65 inch Samsung 4 k tv as a monitor..3840x2160...dcs res as well

I followed Thud guide and Milko Steam guide...pd 100%...VR ipd 63.0..vrdcspd 1.0 ...Various nvidia settings tweak

100 % in steam gives me 2200x2156 in reverb

In tnn I get 45-70.....Instant action Nevada map free flight 55-85.more altitude more FPS

I hope people are running this ......if you are ready for steam VR test....BELOW LINK....I know it’s just a baseline....dcs SteamVR still need a lot of optimization

my buddy has a 7700 K and a 2080 TI and he only gets 5 to 10 more FPS so DCS, steam, WMR all need more optimizing for DCS.

 

So while DCS is definitely hard on hardware end it does take a little effort to go through and tweak the video settings and DCS settings and steam settings but it’s totally worth it when you’re looking out a bubble canopy in VR....Through the HP Reverb

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rl-Oelhc_ySx2y4bnfoekbR-6UQYA0Ds/view?usp

Edited November 9, 2019 by POV1

the problem with the reverb is that it has to many layers of software between the headset and the game.

its not a hardware layer problem.

its a software layer problem.

hp software talking to windows mixed reality, talking to steam VR, talking to the game.

its why i avoid WMR. too much software overhead.

and as VR is all about latency. that is way to much software latency.

 

throwing faster hardware at the problem is a brute force approach.

which is not guaranteed to fix the problem

and apparently does not. there is no brute with enough force on the market.

...its why i avoid WMR. too much software overhead.

and as VR is all about latency. that is way to much software latency.

 

Do you ever Own a Reverb or a fast PC? I use VR since day one of the DK2 and had the CV1 on day one and the Rift S.

 

Yes with the Reverb you have to run WMR and SVR, but there is no noticeable Latency because of the Software Layer. What you really notice is 80Hz vs 90Hz Screens.

 

The Reverb needs a powerful PC because of the high Resolution.

 

 

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Hey Eagle, can't say how much I appreciate you posting that thread for me and others. I did try your exact settings (several times actually) and for me ghosting, did not disappear. The thing is, I trust you totally and believe you are exactly relaying your experience. In our labs, during lunch time when a few of the guys play around with gaming or flight simming, it is not unusual for two guys to try the exact same VR headset and come away with two very different subjective experiences, LOL. It's all good, your contributions to the community are much appreciated, ... at least by me (and I am sure, many others)!

 

Oh, its not completely gone, but extremely rare. :smilewink:

 

I agree with you about this all being totally subjective, just kind of had a little bit of heartburn with the implication by the OP that I didn't know what ghosting was and was spreading misinformation. The comment was directed at me, based on some PMs I had exchanged with the OP, all of which seemed quite civil to me. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how someone can keep their focus so sharp on an Su-27 passing them with a 700 knot closure rate that they're able to see ghosting so badly that it ruins everything for them. The thing gets extremely small in a mere fraction of a second. :)

 

I don't usually fly air-to-air, but I was able to keep eyes on the best I could for the closure rate and didn't see ghosting. Then I was able to climb, turn, do a lag pursuit and kill him, knowing exactly how I needed to maneuver to get into an advantageous position because I could see him so much better than I ever could on my CV1. That was a really fun experience though. I had no idea that the F-14 was such a beast in BFM, it looks way too huge to be so nimble.

 

What aircraft are you usually flying, Aurelius? Since I fly the A-10C mostly, I may be incorrectly thinking that you're flying it too. When I had my CV1 and was getting really bad ghosting when I went without the shaders mod, I did a lot of experimentation with what the biggest performance killers were. One of the biggest performance killers, as it turns out, doesn't really have anything to do with graphics settings, although the problem is aggravated by one of them. The biggest performance killer is when you have video displayed on your MFCDs from either the TGP, the MAV, or both. Even to this day, just out of habit, I put both screens on a non-video page until I get to the target area. If I have one or both displayed shortly after takeoff in the In The Weeds mission, its stutter/ghost city. Ironically, in the mission, if I trade my A-10C for an F-14B, I actually get better graphical performance, even though my aircraft's speed is a lot higher. The MFCD video problem is also the reason I turned my "cockpit displays" setting down to 256 a long time ago. Haven't really noticed much of a difference in my target-finding abilities between that and 1024, but then again, there's a lot going on and you don't really have time to get fixated on any one item in the cockpit.

 

Something I have not figured out how to get clearer in the cockpit though, is the CMSP panel. Unless I lean in, the text on it is always smudged no matter what my settings are.

@eaglecash867 Please note that I wasn't specifically 'targeting' you with my comment - it was a general response to the multiple users on here who are claiming they have removed ghosting on the Reverb. These claims mean other users are wasting countless hours trying to solve this issue, and yet others will buy a Reverb expecting there to be no ghosting issues.

 

As I've pointed out, and numerous other people have discovered, this is impossible.

 

It's fantastic that you don't notice ghosting. That doesn't mean it's not a real issue that is 100% currently the norm on the Reverb. Ghosting is a vague term to discuss a very real artifact of reprojection, which is why I asked you to run VRfps so I could see what your hard, scientific numbers are. Unfortunately you decided not to, but I'm sure you'd have then seen just how many frames you're dropping. Looking at the fps counter and being happy with 45fps shows that some people just don't understand what reprojection is - you should always see 45fps locked with reprojection turned on, but I won't write an essay explaining why, as there are other guides on the Internet explaining this.

 

Also, eaglecash, you're running at extremely low settings - specifically, much lower than the native resolution of the Reverb. This will introduce a huge amount of aliasing/pixelisation, which many users simply can't stomach. You're also disabling all shadows, which has a HUGE effect on VR fps, and suggests there's something very wrong with the DCS engine in VR.

 

In summary it's great that some are happy with the experience. But I wanted to shine a light on 100% incorrect information that will lead to higher expectations from other users. As a technology writer specialising in PC gaming hardware and performance, I've got over 20 years of real world, full time experience looking at these issues, so will always try to share the correct information and clear up misconceptions. Now, just because ghosting (which should more accurately be called something like reprojection double-frame artifacting) is currently an issue, does this mean that VR is not worth enjoying? Absolutely not, especially in less demanding scenarios where fps is better. But, and it's a big but, does it compare well to the experience of a high-end PC on a huge, crisp display? That's the million dollar question - I'm leaning towards enjoying both. VR for 'fun', immersive sessions, 2D for serious, lengthy and complex missions.

I would never go Back with DCS to a Screen,because the Reverb runs great and I have also TrackiR and a 144Hz Samsung C49HG90 in my Simulator, for Racegames without VR Support.

 

I would say, the best way is to proof the Reverb by yourself and find your Settings. Don't trust useless comments, because without VR is also without Immersion,after a real experience.

 

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I have just received my Reverb and I don't look at FPS counters.

I tune it to where my brain perceive that it's smooth. Perhaps that is the wrong approach from a scientific view :D

However, getting rid of ghosting is impossible in some fast moving situations but that is something I'm willing to live with in regards of the performance and graphics overall.

Yes a small amount will be there, but this kind of Ghosting is normal on every HMD with DCS,the only reason why people recognize it on the Reverb more, is the benchmark Resolution and the needed high System Specs to run it. But playing on a flat Screen, is milky way far away from a VR experience with the Reverb.

 

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Edited November 10, 2019 by TOYKILLA

Do you think one day they might improve reprojection so we don’t even notice when it comes on?

That would be pretty good right? And probably more likely than dcs suddenly becoming less demanding in vr.

I do think ASW on the oculus headsets is a bit less noticeable than the steam equivalent so hopefully there is room for improvement for steam

If you have the "motionvector" Option activated, the Reprojection is always on and DCS is smooth like real 90Fps.

 

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Also, eaglecash, you're running at extremely low settings - specifically, much lower than the native resolution of the Reverb. This will introduce a huge amount of aliasing/pixelisation, which many users simply can't stomach. You're also disabling all shadows, which has a HUGE effect on VR fps, and suggests there's something very wrong with the DCS engine in VR.

 

 

Yes, this is true. I'm sorry, but where did I say otherwise? I posted all of my settings in screen shots a week or two ago, and you're just now noticing them? I have also been pretty clear about the fact that ghosting is not gone completely. I have referred to it as "very little" or "rare". Yes, something is wrong with the DCS engine, so I found ways to work with it and make a tolerable experience for myself. I shared my settings for that purpose, to help others who don't simply want to fold their arms and say "it can't be done". It can be done, but we have to deal with reality and make sacrifices until the Holy Grail finally shows up. VR experiences are highly subjective, and I have always encouraged people to buy from authorized distributors with good return policies in case their experience didn't match my own. I'm not here to convince anybody of anything, just to share the settings I'm using for my VR experience. Its very much a "you do you" situation.

 

In summary it's great that some are happy with the experience. But I wanted to shine a light on 100% incorrect information that will lead to higher expectations from other users.

 

So, in other words, you were targeting me with your post. I've always given full disclosure about my settings so as NOT to mislead anybody. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the reality of the situation by making sacrifices of things that some of us don't feel are all that important anyway. The Reverb image quality, AND performance is leaps and bounds ahead of my CV1. How it compares to the latest, cheaper offerings, I wouldn't know, and have made no claims to the contrary. As I have said before, I can only see what I see, not what others think I should see.

 

As a technology writer specialising in PC gaming hardware and performance, I've got over 20 years of real world, full time experience looking at these issues, so will always try to share the correct information and clear up misconceptions.

 

With all due respect to your resume' that you keep feeling the need to mention for some reason, Richard Quest has 18 years of real world experience as CNNs Aviation Correspondent, and even wrote a book on the subject. That doesn't mean that those of us who are hands-on in the aviation world don't roll our eyes every time he speaks. Just sayin'. :smilewink:

 

The problem with your "clearing up misconceptions" and "100% incorrect information" is that you have not disclosed your test conditions like I have. The information was all there, bud. All you had to do was read it. Others have. Some have been happy with the results, other's haven't due to personal preferences for what they want from the experience. Simply saying "it can't be done" when you don't disclose the settings you're using isn't really "clearing up" anything. I'd love it if I could max everything out in DCS in VR, but the reality of the situation is that it just ain't there yet. So, if we pair our settings down a little bit, we can all get the best possible experience. The way I see it is that the technology will improve, and getting a VR headset that has the headroom to grow when that improves just seems like a better investment. But, again, its not correct or incorrect, its a personal preference, and I have been very clear about the settings that I'm using so I don't mislead anybody. :thumbup:

Yes a small amount will be there, but this kind of Ghosting is normal on every HMD with DCS,the only reason why people recognize it on the Reverb more, is the benchmark Resolution and the needed high System Specs to run it. But playing on a flat Screen, is milky way far away from a VR experience with the Reverb.

 

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I couldn't agree more, Toykilla. Before VR, missile and AAA avoidance was a real source of frustration because there is such a disconnect with your natural senses and instincts when you're on a flat screen. Air to air combat was also something I never found to be all that much fun because it was always a non-stop turning fight where you had to visualize how you would defeat an opponent in 3 dimensions, when all you could see was 2. VR has completely changed that for me as well. Its a really awesome experience if you're not looking for reasons to be disappointed in everything. :pilotfly:

Eagecrash, chill buddy! My post was actually in response to another thread with the title stating that they had solved ghosting. This kind of misinformation wastes people's valuable time and money, so I wanted a clear thread for those trying to solve ghosting on the Reverb (which many have thanks to the misinformation on these forums) telling them not to bother. This came after I spent days and days trying to solve the issue, only to find it's impossible. Certain other people on these forums don't help the matter, claiming it's other users' computers at fault, and that their game runs perfectly with no ghosting issues.

 

You did actually claim that you had solved ghosting when messaging me, stating things like: "This could very well be why you're having ghosting on yours. I haven't found this to be the case...Its only the nature of reprojection if you're over-taxing the processor...the Su-27 looks just fine in the merge when I'm in the F-14... I'm very familiar with what ghosting looks like...Doesn't happen with the Reverb"

 

This is why I asked you to run VRfps so I could verify your subjective observations with objective facts. Unfortunately you didn't, so I spent considerable time trying to replicate your non-ghosting. Turns out this is impossible, at least when running the Reverb at its native resolution - I'm not going to try lower, as I could have stuck with my Vive Cosmos to run at those resolutions.

 

I totally understand if you don't perceive ghosting like many of us do. Perhaps some of us have higher-attuned visual systems due to long-term gaming that makes us more sensitive to this? (I know gamers are indeed susceptible to noticing visual flaws more than non-gamers, as I did an experiment on the LCD projector rainbow effect with a test-group, but I digress). Regardless, I envy you for not being bothered by this - but it could also be due to the fact that you don't fly fighters and don't dogfight, making you less prone to being in situations where it's extremely obvious. I can say that for those of us who dogfight at WVR, the ghosting is pretty damn atrocious. Nothing like seeing an Su-27 warp right on by, with a ghost-like second aircraft a metre behind it! I don't think it's overly critical to point out such a fundamental issue.

 

As for what settings I ran my tests in, I used the F-14 in numerous places - the F-14 carrier take-off training mission, the F-14 runway takeoff quick mission, and F-14 dogfight quick mission - and using the following test settings, other than running the Reverb at its native resolution via SteamVR's setting panel:

• All in-game settings low, but I didn't disable shadows (kept them at low)
  
• All in-game settings high
  
• A mixture of high and low, lowering those that had the biggest impact on frametime (not fps)
  

 

Turns out the difference between low and high is about 45fps in low to 36fps in high - and even at 45fps, reprojection is enabled automatically (remember, the game must hit 90fps to match the 90Hz of the HMD to disable reprojection). I also tried the F-16 and F-18 in various scenarios to see if their less detailed models would still cause terrible performance - they do. I'm not sure about the A-10 though; given it's a decade old old model, I'd wager that it has slightly better performance, but would still suffer from performance issues.

 

The reason I mention my experience is to show that I'm used to testing these things scientifically, with results that can be replicated and terminology that everyone can understand. I know the importance of sharing factual, correct information, as people read it and then use it to make decisions on how they spend their time and money. When people spread incorrect information, it can lead to others wasting their time, or becoming frustrated trying to solve an impossible problem.

 

Anyway, as I said, your inability to see ghosting is fantastic. Unfortunately, ghosting is a real problem for Reverb users, whether the player is one of the few who doesn't see it or not, and existing owners and potential buyers of the Reverb shouldn't chase a rainbow trying to fix it. (bolded so that those looking for a Reverb ghosting fix don't get caught up in all the guff on this thread!). While this is a problem, DCS VR remains a fantastic way to fly around scenery at altitude, but falls apart in the nitty gritty of dog-fighting.

 

Oh, btw, the reason the game slows down when you have external video feeds on your HMDs is that it has to re-render each of those zoomed in areas , thus massively increasing the geometry load on your PC. Hope that helps.

Edited November 10, 2019 by GunSlingerAUS

I couldn't agree more, Toykilla. Before VR, missile and AAA avoidance was a real source of frustration because there is such a disconnect with your natural senses and instincts when you're on a flat screen. Air to air combat was also something I never found to be all that much fun because it was always a non-stop turning fight where you had to visualize how you would defeat an opponent in 3 dimensions, when all you could see was 2. VR has completely changed that for me as well. Its a really awesome experience if you're not looking for reasons to be disappointed in everything. :pilotfly:

Yes,I can't understand it. In LOMAC Times we couldn't dream about what we have now. On 2011,I'm playing DCS on a 40" Triple Screen with TrackIR and a Wooden Eurofighter Cockpit Replica and was thinking it couldn't be better. Now we have a nearly perfect VR experience, and fill pages about tiny Ghosting that will recognize by 5% of us and compare DCS VR with flatscreen Gameboy like usage what I never really liked. Its another Galaxy in my opinion and I have a smooth running HP Reverb running on my high End System with no issues. So who do you trust, Mr. i don't get it run properly on my System or Me who says, I have all Oculus VR HMD's since the DK2 used in my Simulator and the Reverb is the best DCS Experience i ever had.

 

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Edited November 10, 2019 by TOYKILLA

Eagecrash, chill buddy! My post was actually in response to another thread with the title stating that they had solved ghosting.

 

Really? Point that thread out to me, please, if you would be so kind. Why make a whole new thread if you were responding to one that already exists?

 

You did actually claim that you had solved ghosting when messaging me, stating things like: "This could very well be why you're having ghosting on yours. I haven't found this to be the case...Its only the nature of reprojection if you're over-taxing the processor...the Su-27 looks just fine in the merge when I'm in the F-14... I'm very familiar with what ghosting looks like...Doesn't happen with the Reverb"

 

You are taking something said to you in private and editing it to fit your argument, buddy. Putting different statements together without keeping them in their proper context. I'm sorry, but that's not going to fly. Everyone here, including you, has seen my PUBLIC POSTS that say that ghosting is rare or occasional. Your editing something that nobody else has seen themselves isn't a good way to make your case.

 

This is why I asked you to run VRfps so I could verify your subjective observations with objective facts. Unfortunately you didn't, so I spent considerable time trying to replicate your non-ghosting. Turns out this is impossible, at least when running the Reverb at its native resolution - I'm not going to try lower, as I could have stuck with my Vive Cosmos to run at those resolutions.

 

Another half-truth. You're leaving out the fact that, in that very same chain of PMs, I told you my reasons for not wanting to use FPS VR. I said it appeared as if I would have to use the hand controllers, and didn't want to do that. I also told you that I had thought about trying FPSVR, just out of curiosity to see the actual numbers. As I have said here many times, in many threads, I don't spend much time looking at FPS counters. If I don't see a difference with my eyes, an FPS counter isn't going to change my mind. I also put forth the theory (more like a wild guess) that maybe FPSVR could be using some resources.

 

 

As for what settings I ran my tests in, I used the F-14 in numerous places - the F-14 carrier take-off training mission, the F-14 runway takeoff quick mission, and F-14 dogfight quick mission - and using the following test settings, other than running the Reverb at its native resolution via SteamVR's setting panel:

[*]All in-game settings low, but I didn't disable shadows (kept them at low)

[*]All in-game settings high

[*]A mixture of high and low, lowering those that had the biggest impact on frametime (not fps)

 

That's a pretty vague list, but the key thing here (which I also posted a screenshot of in my thread) is that I run my Reverb at 100% super-sampling, not at the 180% you need to hit the native resolution. I've been very clear about that as well, so I'm still not quite sure what's tripping you up, GunSlinger. I have also very clearly explained that I didn't see a need to run things any higher than 100% because I saw no visual benefit to doing so. Sure, we get things slightly clearer in the distance, but to me it wasn't worth the performance hit. I'm coming from a Rift CV1, and again, have made no comparisons between the Reverb and any of the less powerful headsets you mentioned. I started my own thread on the subject because both you and Aurelius asked about what my settings were, and there was so much trolling going on in that thread you both asked me the question in, that it got shut down. I was very clear about my settings, with photographic evidence, for the very reasons you state you were trying to stop by starting this thread. I don't want to waste anybody's time, so if you didn't try the settings I had in those screenshots, the only person you can blame for your wasting time is you. Nothing frustrates me more than eggheads who go on forums, telling people things like "Edit your registry key for this..." simply because they had it work once, so I try my best not to be that guy.

 

Oh, btw, the reason the game slows down when you have external video feeds on your HMDs is that it has to re-render each of those zoomed in areas , thus massively increasing the geometry load on your PC. Hope that helps.

 

Thanks for that, but I don't recall saying that I didn't know why it was happening. I know why its happening, just don't seem to see it mentioned much by anybody. Just trying to be helpful by pointing out my observations.

 

Like I said before, my previous thread was done in the interest of full disclosure. There was nothing left out or churched up to try to convince anybody of anything, and you just told me here that you were refusing to turn your SteamVR down like I did, so again, you're comparing apples to oranges, and telling me I'm wrong. :doh: