VKB/Heatblur F-14 "Tomcat" grip - POLL

VKB have finished the designing stage of their co-production with Heatblur Simulations which resulted in a final 3d model of a legendary grip.

Now VKB is moving on to working on the interior of the grip.

Although the design was based on 3d scanning of a real life sample, VKB sees it vital to have the prototype approved by the experienced real life F14 pilots. For that, the prototype will be shortly sent to Heatblur.

Before we proceed to working on the interiors, we would like to ask virtual pilots the following two questions:

1 - Does the grip have to have twist function?

Twist mechanism does not change the looks of the grip, as it is entirely inside the casing.

Also, this mechanism can be easily locked when not needed.

However twist mechanism has its price, which will increase the total cost of the grip.

2 - Should there be a Warthog base mountable version of the grip?

This question is more complex than it sounds. Warthog's controller can only handle buttons, not axes. Hence, this version of the grip will be limited in its functionality compared to standard version: the self centering thumbwheel will work as two buttons, effectively cancelling precise analog mode. Needless to say, the twist will be not available for this version, either.

Important note about compatibility with VPC bases: Whether VPC bases can or cannot work with VKB grips, one should ask VPC. We are NOT working on it, and have NO plans to work on making this possible.

We are not talking about "axes will turn into buttons" here. We are talking about no compatibility at all.

This is not disputable.

In simple explicit words:

Do NOT expect to buy VKB grips with intention to make them work on a VPC base. This will most likely NOT happen.

We are waiting for your feedback.

DISCLAIMER:

This is NOT a product announcement. We are not talking about estimated release date of this product, nor we are accepting any obligation to ever release the product as such. It is a prospective model we are working on. To get updates on its progress please check our forum every now and again. When there are news, you will be the first to know!

I voted No, imho this grip should instead definitely have the possibility to set an angled grip position for center-mounted set-ups, just like the MCGPro.

Personally, I wouldn’t need a feature-reduced Warthog-Version of the grip.

I will certainly buy one, but for my Gunfighter MkII base and not for my Warthog base.

Thanks for asking!

1. No twist for me.

2. Warthog compatibility will make the grip accessible to more users. This means more customers for VKB. Could the grip have a wheel that works as buttons on a WH, and axis on the VKB? Perhaps the same grip for both WH and VKB, but an adaptor for the WH base? The adaptor could have its own USB port so that the grip becomes a USB controller of its own, and the WH base is used for the X&Y axes.

Definatly make it Warthawg compatible, but no on the twist.

1 - Does the grip have to have twist function?

Twist mechanism does not change the looks of the grip, as it is entirely inside the casing.

Also, this mechanism can be easily locked when not needed.

However twist mechanism has its price, which will increase the total cost of the grip.

No twist on a right handed grip.

If there will be a left handed version, then yes, that LH version should have twist. A LH grip for space sims.

2 - Should there be a Warthog base mountable version of the grip?

This question is more complex than it sounds. Warthog's controller can only handle buttons, not axes. Hence, this version of the grip will be limited in its functionality compared to standard version: the self centering thumbwheel will work as two buttons, effectively cancelling precise analog mode. Needless to say, the twist will be not available for this version, either.

Maybe. But not so much to be used on a Warthog base (that is not a very good base). Main reason would be to use it on a Virpil base. And not sure if VKB would like that. On one hand, it's a grip sold to a customer. On the other hand, it's not also a base sold. But same applies in case of a Warthog base.

1 - Does the grip have to have twist function?

Twist mechanism does not change the looks of the grip, as it is entirely inside the casing.

Also, this mechanism can be easily locked when not needed.

However twist mechanism has its price, which will increase the total cost of the grip.

I personally don't care if their is a twist functionality so long as I can lock it and keep it from twisting (which it was stated that it will lock). It's not a feature I will use since I have rudder pedals.

2 - Should there be a Warthog base mountable version of the grip?

This question is more complex than it sounds. Warthog's controller can only handle buttons, not axes. Hence, this version of the grip will be limited in its functionality compared to standard version: the self centering thumbwheel will work as two buttons, effectively cancelling precise analog mode. Needless to say, the twist will be not available for this version, either.

Yes PLEASE make a warthog base moutable version. It's a win/win for everyone involved if you make both versions. Their are a TON of warthog owners, that would love to use this stick, including me. Good for warthog owners, good for VKB owners, and good for the manufacturer since they will cater to both HOTAS configs.

left handed version

To the latest of our engineers' knowledge, F14 Tomcat was an aircraft made for right hand controlling... hence, no left hand versions are planned.

Main reason would be to use it on a (third party) base

All we can promise is this grip's correct functioning on our own and on original Warthog bases.

I vote for the twist mechanism.

I vote for the warthog base version.

Here are my points :

Twist, when possible should always be added. As i understand enthousiasts people using rudders pedals for better immersion, thoses sticks are still made to play Games, not a real jet fighter. and might be used to play other games too. People who are pleased by fidelidy should have the possibilty to choose what they considere the best Match Point between fidelity and convenience. For me, having rudders is excluded. I dont like to play with it, it would lays under my desk in my living room and my wife would not be happy with it. but i do love fidelity and having the same grip on my desk than inside my cockpit is just amazing. I will never forget when i tried the Warthog (my main plane is the A10-c so...) the feeling was amazing !!! but i still dont want rudders and since the warthog have no twist and it was too hasardous to use the ComHat on the trottle to use rudders, i didn't purchased it. it's just an unit lost for Thrustmaster, but how many did they miss like it ?

If it must cost more then so be it. I doubt it will add 100€ to the final price And most importantly, you would avoid cuts in your buyers pool.

For the warthog base compability its a more complexe question. First its all about feasability. I understand limitations in protocols and if the stick cannot properly communicate with the base, it should not be made. But if a solution exist (even if its putting a new cable between the stick and the computer ! ok, it would be ugly). Then it should be engineered and proposed to the public.

I understand engineering cost of developping this possibility might not be profitable. Even if the pool of player that already own a warthog might be really huge. But you would increase kindness of people toward you. Too many company dont think enough about what's Good or Evil and Company who do choose small harm and losses to make the greater good will always be rewarded in the long term. but that's only my opinion.

Cheers guys and keep going ! we love you !

Perhaps the same grip for both WH and VKB, but an adaptor for the WH base? The adaptor could have its own USB port....

There is one thing that isn't so obvious, so let me focus on it.

Adapter is as much a product as a grip itself. Not as sophisticated but still it demands time to design and produce. Much time, I would say.

No manufacturer is happy to mess with adapters.

Plus, adapter adds to the height of the device.

In simple words, we are not totally outruling the adapter, but the probability of it reaching the market is... pretty close to zero.

Perhaps the same grip for both WH and VKB, but an adaptor for the WH base? The adaptor could have its own USB port so that the grip becomes a USB controller of its own, and the WH base is used for the X&Y axes.

This is actually a great idea, but IMHO it would make more sense if all the buttons were handled by the WH base (so that TM programming software could still be used) and all the added stick axes would be handled by a separate controller board in the adapter which would connect to the USB port separately and be recognized as a separate device.

That way, all the grips VKB makes could be used on TM (and Virpil I guess) bases without a need for a separate line (like the announced MCG-TM).

Not sure if a direct plug-in adapter would be feasible (due to extra height and the forces exerted on it), but I guess the grip could be opened and an adapter inserted instead of the VKB connector into the base.

In simple words, we are not totally outruling the adapter, but the probability of it reaching the market is...

It was just a suggestion. It’s also cheaper to make just one grip, instead of two with different connectors, as well. But I see your point.

VPC solved a similar problem by making the brake lever axis function as a button on the WH base, and an axis on their own base, thus making the same grip work with any WH compatible base.

That said, I do prefer the VKB connector over the TM Warthog and Cougar connector. But the TM connector has become somewhat of a standard...

Twist -> No

Warthog base mountable version -> Yes

This is actually a great idea

:D It might be great but it is impractical.

Adapter, as I clarified above, steals tons of resource from the engineers and production team.

In simple words, it moves the remaining product line-up months back.

Also, it does - as you very wisely noted - add to the height of the device.

Plus, it complicates things in future: has anyone thought of firmware updates that would have to be written not for the grip itself but for a (grip+adapter) system?

In simple words, adapter is something we would resort to only in very special cases. MCG got an adapter because it is a flagship grip, and it's being made in such numbers that investing in developing an adapter becomes affordable. Tomcat is a niche product inside a niche hobby.

So let's just take it as a fact, there will be no adapter to magically make WH base as capable as Gunfighter.

TMWH Adapter -> Yes

Please read the original text attentively: there is nothing there about the adapter.

WH-mountable version with severe limited functionality due to WH's innate limitations - yes. (and the question was about it)

Adapter - no.

Please read the original text attentively: there is nothing there about the adapter.

WH-mountable version with severe limited functionality due to WH's innate limitations - yes. (and the question was about it)

Adapter - no.

You're right. I'll correct my post. :)

Twist: no

Warthog compatibility: absolutely!

To the latest of our engineers' knowledge, F14 Tomcat was an aircraft made for right hand controlling... hence, no left hand versions are planned.

Ask them if F14's grip had twist, while you are at it, then.

A grip needs to be ergonomic and to have the desired functions (triggers, buttons, hat switches, etc.). The name or the original inspiration are of a lesser concern (except for a few, which aim for replicating in their simpit a certain aircraft cockpit).

All we can promise is this grip's correct functioning on our own and on original Warthog bases.

That should be enough to cover the third party bases. Any grip which works on Warthog base should also work on the other ones.

1. Twist needs to be optional or not included. I suggest making it compatible with the same twist adapter being developed for the MCG, if possible. Then those that want twist can pay extra for it and those that don't won't pay extra for what they would prefer not to be included.

2. Warthog compatibility would open the grip up for use by more users, including Virpil base owners. Sounds like a good idea, unless it compromises the functionality of the VKB version.

Adapter, as I clarified above, steals tons of resource from the engineers and production team.

In simple words, it moves the remaining product line-up months back.

Also, it does - as you very wisely noted - add to the height of the device.

Plus, it complicates things in future: has anyone thought of firmware updates that would have to be written not for the grip itself but for a (grip+adapter) system?

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Since you're talking about this, this seems exactly what you did on Kosmosima. It has 2 grip, and one have things that can be swaped. So i guess your firmware is flexible enough to handle both units ?

I do understand that if you never planned to add another axis between stick and base it would be difficult, electronicatly speaking, to include it now. But would not it have been a lack of flexibility that might be corriged sooner or later anyway, isn't it ?

Now, the main and maybe only point here about twist is : is there enough people wishing to pay for that feature that would cover the loss from thoses who didn't purchased the stick because it has twist (and so, cost too much ? if the option with/without exist (so we know how much it would have cost without this adapter) and if you know exactly how you put in R&D to bring this adapter, and tell us the impact of this R&D on the final price.)

Anyway, you're almost alone on this market (and alone on this stick in particular) and people are patient so time shouldn't be an issue.

:D It might be great but it is impractical.

Adapter, as I clarified above, steals tons of resource from the engineers and production team.

In simple words, it moves the remaining product line-up months back.

Also, it does - as you very wisely noted - add to the height of the device.

It does as an add-on adapter, it doesn't if it replaces the VKB base mount in the bottom of the stick (e.g. like MCG-TM will have).

Plus, it complicates things in future: has anyone thought of firmware updates that would have to be written not for the grip itself but for a (grip+adapter) system?

Sure, it complicates matters somewhat, but how often do you need to flash a firmware in the grip? There is a limited number of buttons and axes there, what needs to change exactly? And how would the MCG-TM get these updates anyway?

The main thing that might need flashing is the controller in the adapter to support new grips perhaps and that could probably be avoided with a good initial design.

In simple words, adapter is something we would resort to only in very special cases. MCG got an adapter because it is a flagship grip, and it's being made in such numbers that investing in developing an adapter becomes affordable. Tomcat is a niche product inside a niche hobby.

Such an adapter would be useful even for your MCG-TM grip as it is loses on the axes functionality. And it becomes way more practical in the future if you decide to make additional grips.

So let's just take it as a fact, there will be no adapter to magically make WH base as capable as Gunfighter.

Sure, that's your choice. But, given the number of TM bases on that poll (compared to e.g. VKB bases), it seems like the wrong business choice.

As a TM base user, I prefer their software to what VKB offers at the moment and I don't really consider throwing it all away anytime soon to switch to another even more expensive system.

I might get the MCG-TM grip just to have the option of a Russian stick design, but any other grips which have axes (like the proposed F-14), probably not as losing those specific axes kinda makes the specific airframe grips functionally pointless.

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I guess I’ll be the jackass by posting what is best for me specifically.

1) No. I use pedals and don’t want to pay more for a feature I am not going to use.

2) No. I do not have a WH base, and I do not want to lose functionality of the stick in order to make it compatible with one.

Honestly (since only one of the two can be yes anyway), I will probably still buy the stick if it has lockable twist. I will most likely not buy the stick if it is WH compatible. At that point I am paying only for aesthetics over the MCG, and that isn’t worth the cost to me. I want the Tomcat stick to be a 1:1 replica, with 1:1 functionality included.

1. No twist version please.

2. Yes for a WH version

2) No. I do not have a WH base, and I do not want to lose functionality of the stick in order to make it compatible with one.

The VKB F-14 Warthog-compatible grip would be a distinct/separate version (if they will make it). Special for the Warthog base. It will not work on a VKB Gunfighter base.

The VKB F-14 grip version for VKB bases would not have those limitations.

Ask them if F14's grip had twist, while you are at it

You know what, there are some people that lost their legs. Or ability to control their lower body. Car crashes, you know. Sport injuries. Shиt happens. Some of them are virtual pilots. They can't use pedals. We are happy that with our help they will be able to fly legendary plane without pedals.

We are thinking about it, and it is a serious consideration.

That should be enough to cover the third party bases. Any grip which works on Warthog base should also work on the other ones.

Case closed.

The VKB F-14 Warthog-compatible grip would be a distinct/separate version (if they will make it). Special for the Warthog base. It will not work on a VKB Gunfighter base.

Exactly! :)