Human JTAC for Su-25A/T?

So we were messing around with using a human CA player to JTAC, and while it was really awesome using smoke and machine gun tracers to designate for Frogs, I feel like there should be a way for a CA JTAC to laser designate for the Frogs like they can for the Hogs.

I can't imagine that the capability isn't there, I just haven't been able to figure it out yet. So if anyone knows how, or if they can be kind enough to point me in the right direction, that'd be great.

If the capability isn't there, I think it would be a pretty awesome addition.

I think they can't miss something so obvious

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Be sure this will never happen.

Where did you have the information the real Planes are able to do this.

This will only happen if the ability of infantry designating Targets via Laser for RU A/G Planes was already up at the time the SU25A and T just came out, and they are able to do so.

Be sure this will never happen.

Where did you have the information the real Planes are able to do this.

In the Su-25 manual :smilewink: (page:25)

But impossible in-game :(

Ha now you got them. :)

Lets see what happens

Same counts for KA-50/SU-25 buddylasing.

So a RU ground-based LTD (Laser Target Designator) exists, but no knowledge if the SU-25A/T has LST (Laser Spot Track) capability. This is what the Pave Penny did on the A-10A (LST only), which has been replaced by targeting pods.

As far as I know, both SU25 and KA50 share the Shkval targeting system. This system is unable to track a laser spot as it's purely an optical system.

That doesn't mean the SU25 or KA50 can't use their laser to guide a KH25 from the other, just needs to be tested if you ask me.

As for the JTAC, maybe it works with a KH25, maybe it doesn't. There have been some laser codes around like 1111 or 1113 or 1033 to try to get the KH25 to guide to the laser spot generated by the human JTAC.

Is the laser technology used by designators the same between western and eastern units ? Because it can't be as simple as setting the "same" frequency ? :confused:

No. AFAIK, the four digit PRF codes are a NATO standard. I don't know if Russian designators have selectable codes, or if they're coincidentally four digit either.

Maybe for gameplay purposes, they included some code that can be used between russian units.

I can see at least two potential technical problems with implementation of this without good source materials.

As far as we know the Su-25 and Su-25T don't have a means of displaying JTAC lasing dots for the pilot. This creates a challenge, as the JTAC and Pilot must establish the precise target, the azimuth of the side of the target that is painted by the lasing, and then the pilot would have to launch the laser guided munition with incomplete information as to whether the launch was well within good launch parameters.

Depending on the coding of the missile seeker logic (in real life), and whether the ground lasing unit has an ID built into the designator system, there also might be problems convincing the missile to accept the dot as a target, or even to launch at all.

Source material for Russian systems seems to be generally harder to obtain than source material for NATO systems, so if it's not implemented it may just be due to lack of details about the specifics of how it works.

That doesn't mean the SU25 or KA50 can't use their laser to guide a KH25 from the other, just needs to be tested if you ask me.

Ka50 in DCS are able to be designator / shooter for each other.

Su25T will (currently - and I assume never) be able to take any of both roles in DCS as it is an FC3 aircraft. Though I don't think it'll get the neccessary, sophisticated LTD. Sadly...

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165417

This Guy did find the Laser Code: 1113 is Working for SU25-T with the KH29-L and the KH25-ML.

Everything that is able to Designate with 1113 can paint targets for the SU-25T.

Its not working with the SU25-A and KA-50.

ISE :)

All beside the laser story, a human JTAC can always use a SU-25 for Close Air Support. If it's pre-planned CAS, one can use a geo reference grid, like this one:

Other possibilities include smoke or tracer fire to mark targets. We train it a lot with A10c's without TGP performing a low-level pop-up manuouvrer.

When the A10 is performing his/her ingress at low-level, the JTAC "paints a picture" using geographical references starting out with a large picture such as "the area has three hills, one to the north and two to the soutwest, the village with a river running from the north to the south lies in between these hills". Then the jtac zooms in with more details such as "a bridge crosses the river in the middle of this village from the north of the east"and even further such as "the target is located to the west of this road but south of the power-lines, marked by red smoke"

It is only during this pop-up manuouvrer that they are able to get eyeball mk I on target, not before as they are low-level. The attack is usually performed with high-drag bombs, rockets or guns.

It's a hell of a lot of fun to train and do.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165417

 

This Guy did find the Laser Code: 1113 is Working for SU25-T with the KH29-L and the KH25-ML.

Everything that is able to Designate with 1113 can paint targets for the SU-25T.

 

Its not working with the SU25-A and KA-50.

 

 

ISE :)

You've forgot to mention the S-25L. basically all laser guided stuff the Su-25T can handle. :-)

Apparently there is a laser code the Frogfoot can "see".

As far as I know it's 1113 if you use a JTAC. as per this thread:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165417

I can see at least two potential technical problems with implementation of this without good source materials.

 

 

As far as we know the Su-25 and Su-25T don't have a means of displaying JTAC lasing dots for the pilot.

I remember diamonds on hud in FC2... So, it is doable in theory.

I had a mate lasing for me the other night on Open Conflict he was a10c i was in su25t

As far as I know, both SU25 and KA50 share the Shkval targeting system. This system is unable to track a laser spot as it's purely an optical system.

Well, the laser is light, and targeting systems are optical systems reading light. The question really is that does the Shkval system detect the spectrum the laser is using. And if it detects the laser, does it anything with it. I doubt both of those. As in the manual it is said

The Kh-29L variant has a semi-active laser seeker and is used together with onboard target illuminators, such as the "Kaira" or "Klyon" optical-electronic systems, or ground-based laser target designators.

So Kh-25ML doesn't mention it, but the Kh-29L variant does. And that as well means that the detector is in the missile, not in the launching platform. So how it works is that the ground troops with laser designators paints the target, launching platform targets to the same area and then launch missile, but then at mid-flight (or after firing) stops lasering the target, while missile starts tracking the ground troops laser beam reflection point.

It doesn't make a sense either to make the missile semi-active laser seeker such that it would scan the area and once it detects the laser beam reflection, it would inform launch platform that it has locked on. The seeker should have fairly big field of view to seek laser, maybe around 30 degree or so. So it likely is that once you have the missile selected and you point it at the general heading of the target, you get launch permission. And this requires the pilot to communicate with radio to the ground troops (recon or so) to time and co-operate the launch. Nothing fancy is required like 9-ball lines or any specific codes, both ends just do their jobs in common sense manner where ground units seeks targets and air units deliver the payload. And it becomes very easy if it is pre-planned position as one of the waypoints is set on target, and then Su-25A pilot can already see the range and angle to the target zone, and contacts ground troops to prepare the target.

That doesn't mean the SU25 or KA50 can't use their laser to guide a KH25 from the other, just needs to be tested if you ask me.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1131488&postcount=3

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=825375&postcount=6

If I remember correctly, it was already found that should be possible to buddy laze Kh-25ML. Meaning KA-50 would be able buddy laze to other KA-50 or even Su-25A if the code is correct.

As for the JTAC, maybe it works with a KH25, maybe it doesn't. There have been some laser codes around like 1111 or 1113 or 1033 to try to get the KH25 to guide to the laser spot generated by the human JTAC.

Should be easy by above ones.

I had a mate lasing for me the other night on Open Conflict he was a10c i was in su25t

Which missile did you launch?