We have AI Wingmen - Why not AI Flight Leads??

One of the things I've been pondering on as I learn DCS and learning to fly a couple of the different platforms ((Hog and Hornet at present) is why not have the ability to have the AI be the flight lead and the player/client be the wingman in order to learn and progress through the various modules. ESPECIALLY the training modules.

IRL, this is how training goes for a young pilot's first several years. I would think this would be invaluable in DCS so a new player could follow an "excellent" AI lead around, see the sequence of events, hear the radio calls, see when things are supposed to happen. It would also give one the ability to practice formation skills by flying on the wing of a "flight lead" including formation T/O, landing, enroute, etc. It would also be great to see a mission employment scenario by following someone around that is programed to do the correct actions.

I would think this would be awesome for getting ready to do some cooperative MP missions without looking dumb in front of real people.

Any thoughts on this? Has this ever been discussed among the ED Dev team as a possibility?

That sounds nice in theory, but with how the AI is programmed right now, I'm not really sure you'd get any positive training by following an AI lead's actions. But you will learn to perform actions such as:

*Fly straight and level and have a controlled crash into a mountain during a low level flight.

*Attack AAA with your gun, once you run out of other ordnance and be subsequently ripped to pieces.

*Use afterburner for no reason and run out of fuel 100NM from the nearest friendly base. Set the Bingo level at 500 lbs of fuel for bonus points.

And many more!

Seriously though, the AI pilots in DCS are fine for simple tasks and even more complicated ones, if you set them up right, but damn, they're not the smartest. You're more likely to learn things the wrong way than the correct way, if you follow the AI's example in a lot of things. The AI had some very welcome improvements recently, but it still can't match an experienced player's actions, not even close.

If you want to learn under an experience pilot, there are tons of people who'd love to help, I'm sure. And I don't think that anyone would think that a new pilot is being dumb if they don't know how to do something. And if they do, they're certainly in the minority.

That sounds nice in theory, but with how the AI is programmed right now, I'm not really sure you'd get any positive training by following an AI lead's actions. But you will learn to perform actions such as:

 

*Fly straight and level and have a controlled crash into a mountain during a low level flight.

*Attack AAA with your gun, once you run out of other ordnance and be subsequently ripped to pieces.

*Use afterburner for no reason and run out of fuel 100NM from the nearest friendly base. Set the Bingo level at 500 lbs of fuel for bonus points.

And many more!

 

Seriously though, the AI pilots in DCS are fine for simple tasks and even more complicated ones, if you set them up right, but damn, they're not the smartest. You're more likely to learn things the wrong way than the correct way, if you follow the AI's example in a lot of things. The AI had some very welcome improvements recently, but it still can't match an experienced player's actions, not even close.

 

If you want to learn under an experience pilot, there are tons of people who'd love to help, I'm sure. And I don't think that anyone would think that a new pilot is being dumb if they don't know how to do something. And if they do, they're certainly in the minority.

Fair point. I agree that the AI would have to improve dramatically for that to be of benefit. Its a nice thought though....

You actually can set yourself up as the wingman right now, but it’s not really helpful. So much of what makes a good wingman relies on communication with the lead and right now the AI doesn’t do that. Just trying to follow in formation becomes very difficult when you have no idea when or how the lead will maneuver, let alone what speed they will maintain and targets they will attack. It’s more like follow the leader than being a real wingman.

You actually can set yourself up as the wingman right now, but it’s not really helpful. So much of what makes a good wingman relies on communication with the lead and right now the AI doesn’t do that. Just trying to follow in formation becomes very difficult when you have no idea when or how the lead will maneuver, let alone what speed they will maintain and targets they will attack. It’s more like follow the leader than being a real wingman.

And that different than real life.... how??? :lol:

And that different than real life.... how??? :lol:

Because in real life they communicate with either radio or hand signals their intention to change course or speed. I’m not talking about in a dogfight of course, just flying to and from the target. If the AI could be programmed to radio course and speed calls it would make it somewhat usable.

Cuz you don't want to follow these guys orders...

I hope someday AI WM will be able to do tac turns, join ups, overhead brakes and to/land in formation. Right now it is close to impossible for him to stay in formation in any open formation if you turn away from him, landing is also very cumbersome. He wastes half tank of fuel to join up flying in full AB and doing lag/pure pursuite even if you try to turn to help him catch up.

He/It has a lot to learn as a WM before can be promoted as FL :)

Because in real life they communicate with either radio or hand signals their intention to change course or speed. I’m not talking about in a dogfight of course, just flying to and from the target. If the AI could be programmed to radio course and speed calls it would make it somewhat usable.

And that different than real life.... how??? :lol:

I was trying to be a bit sarcastic and tongue in cheek making fun of flight leads IRL who turn suddenly, don't maintain speed and are not clear on the target plan. It's rare, but it happens.

Sorry, sometimes subtle humor is hard to convey through written words sometimes.

The AI behavior/flight model is too messed up in it's current state. Random, jerky maneuvers, UFO-like flight physics, pulling 4G and hitting afterburner just to change course by 10 degrees, flying straight into terrain when given orbit tasking, etc. When practicing formation off an AI doing an orbit, once they level out after their turn they will slide unnaturally to the left or right, causing a near mid-air if you're trying to do close form.